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Old 04-21-2016, 10:35 AM
 
Location: Living on the Coast in Oxnard CA
15,370 posts, read 25,573,172 times
Reputation: 19641

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Creativity, innovation, self reliance all go away when you offer everyone a basic guaranteed income. Why should anyone have a need to work when they will be offered free everything? Socialist nations are folding and people here in the USA are asking for a free lunch.

The best way to make more than this so called minimum wage is to prepare yourself for a better life. Kids need to learn at home from their parents and at school that if they want to make it in life then they need to take real education seriously and stop taking classes that will get them no where. When you get to college and you are wanting to learn about women's studies or Chicano studies, do that on your own time. Those are not degrees that prepare someone for the work world. When someone says I have a degree and I want more money and then I find out that their degree is in a worthless discipline, I am thinking you are not even worth the so called minimum wage. You get nothing and should have to pay off any debt that you created to get this worthless degree because you chose such a worthless waste of a degree.

Parents need to sit down with their kids and explain what it cost to live. Kids need to know how much it will cost them to live a given lifestyle. parents need to help their kids develop goals for the future. For example my wife and I have 6 kids. We have explained to them what it cost to live where we live. One son wants to live in a 3 story home on the beach. We explained the cost to do that. With each of them we said, if you want to live here you will need to do well in school and choose a chosen field that will pay for the lifestyle that they want. No one is going to hand them over a house on the beach or any house. No one is going to give them a car of their choice or any car.

Everyone I know growing up figured that the minimum wage was for jobs that were entry level at best. I don't even believe in that. I believe a person has to prove what they are worth. If a person can not make an employer on the minimum 3X what they are getting paid then that employee is not worth what they are getting paid. You want $15 then you better be bringing in $45. You want more money? Make the employer more money. become worth more. I have yet to see anyone prove that they are worth $15 an hour. Instead of saying that the employer owes them $15 an hour how many of these people are saying that they bring $45 an hour in value to the employer? I don't see any of them proving that case. If you can not prove your worth then you do not have any worth.

What we need are a set of metrics that can show how much value a person offers a business. Every industry is different, so we should leave that up to the industry. Let employers determine the metrics. Explain them to the employee and base increases off those metrics. The market will adjust to compensate for problems and the metrics will be adjusted. When a potential new hire applies for a job, it should be mandatory to explain the pay structure to the potential new hire. Let them decide if they will agree to the pay. If the individual says yes to the pay then that should be between the employer and the employee. When the employee can show that they are making the employer even more money then the employer can make an offer to pay them more money. If you want to hold an employer to this agreement allow the employers to move to this system and get away from the minimum wage and pay people what they are worth.

I
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Old 04-21-2016, 10:50 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles (Native)
24,151 posts, read 13,675,815 times
Reputation: 11364
Very good post. I totally agree. As we know some employees aren't even worth the minimum wage to an employer.
There are employees for example that are more a liability than anything.
Just an example..and no this example doesn't mean ALL fast food workers are like this...because I know that's the conclusion some might jump to..
I went to a Del Taco and the guy at the drive thru window starts telling me about how he's not even supposed to be at work..and his coworker wasn't there and if the guy doesn't show up he's f'cked...
It was pretty awkward for sure and I wonder how many other customer he said the same thing to.
I kind of cringe that this guy will be getting paid $15 an hour soon...
On the other hand there are fast food workers that work their asses off, provide great service,etc. It's my believe that these people will rise either in the same industry or in another industry. They might even be finishing up a degree with the goal of a better career.

Your points make perfect sense and they make sense if you have an understand of how a business works and what profit margins are and believe in capitalism over socialism.
The problem is though that every Pro $15 hr person is just going to ignore the facts and many of them want to scrap the capitalistic or free market system all together and go towards socialism or democratic socialism or some kind of flavor of socialism.
Some of these countries have like 20% or more unemployment rates.
What kind of message does handing out money send? Nobody should be striving for the 'minimum'.
Sometimes you have to work a low paying job temporarily when you are young or starting over...but people should always be striving for more.
It's not about Greed....it's just about the reality of living anywhere..especially a high cost area like L.A
None of these politicians have the balls to stand up. They know it's bad for business, but they have given into the unions and other vocal 'protestors'.
Jerry Brown was against the min wage hike in January , then he passed it this month.
Clinton was against a $15 min wage, now she's saying she's for one..

Neither Brown , Clinton , Garcetti or Sanders or any of these people run businesses or work as min wage workers so no matter what happens they'll still be fine with their big salaries and benefits.
It's disappointing really because I've always voted Democrat....but the party is going in a horrible no common sense direction.
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Old 04-21-2016, 11:05 AM
 
Location: On the water.
10,312 posts, read 6,375,988 times
Reputation: 8593
Quote:
Originally Posted by jm1982 View Post
Distributing the wealth among citizens more fairly?

Government meddling in private business and trying to redistribute wealth is not the answer.
Because private, for profit business ownership have always been the leaders in wealth redistribution and social responsibility? Since when, jm?
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Old 04-21-2016, 11:15 AM
 
Location: On the water.
10,312 posts, read 6,375,988 times
Reputation: 8593
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOON2BNSURPRISE View Post
Creativity, innovation, self reliance all go away when you offer everyone a basic guaranteed income. Why should anyone have a need to work when they will be offered free everything? Socialist nations are folding and people here in the USA are asking for a free lunch.
Horse manure. It's been done and proven opposite your pure speculation.
Quote:
Canada experimented with a guaranteed minimum income in Dauphin, Manitoba in the early 1970s. The so-called Mincome project found it did not discourage people from working, except for two key groups: new mothers, and teenaged boys who opted to stay in school until graduation.
Ontario's Basic Income Experiment Coming This Fall
Quote:
A Canadian City Once Eliminated Poverty And Nearly Everyone Forgot About It
Between 1974 and 1979, residents of a small Manitoba city were selected to be subjects in a project that ensured basic annual incomes for everyone. For five years, monthly cheques were delivered to the poorest residents of Dauphin, Man. – no strings attached.

And for five years, poverty was completely eliminated.

The project’s original intent was to evaluate if giving cheques to the working poor, enough to top-up their incomes to a living wage, would kill people’s motivation to work. It didn’t.

A Canadian City Once Eliminated Poverty And Nearly Everyone Forgot About It
What socialist nations are folding?
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Old 04-21-2016, 11:18 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles (Native)
24,151 posts, read 13,675,815 times
Reputation: 11364
I never said that private for profit businesses were the leaders in wealth redistribution and social responsibility.
If a wealth person or organization wants to give away their own money they should be able to give away as much as they want.
Many businesses do give away money, such as Target they give away millions and make a point of telling people about it.
But the point of private business is not wealth redistribution or social responsibility...were you under the impression that it should be?...
Also call me crazy or stupid...but I don't trust the government to lead the way or manage 'wealth distribution' .
Do you?...
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Old 04-21-2016, 11:21 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles (Native)
24,151 posts, read 13,675,815 times
Reputation: 11364
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulemutt View Post
Horse manure. It's been done and proven opposite your pure speculation.




What socialist nations are folding?
Plenty to choose from on this list
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_states

But I'm guessing you would say all those places are great places to live and we should adopt the policies that those countries have .

I guess the United States should try to be more like Cuba right?
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Old 04-21-2016, 11:26 AM
 
Location: On the water.
10,312 posts, read 6,375,988 times
Reputation: 8593
Quote:
Originally Posted by jm1982 View Post
I never said that private for profit businesses were the leaders in wealth redistribution and social responsibility.
If a wealth person or organization wants to give away their own money they should be able to give away as much as they want.
Many businesses do give away money, such as Target they give away millions and make a point of telling people about it.
But the point of private business is not wealth redistribution or social responsibility...were you under the impression that it should be?...
Also call me crazy or stupid...but I don't trust the government to lead the way or manage 'wealth distribution' .
Do you?...
Jm, your every post on this topic is filled with nonsense and self contradiction, supported never by anything but opinion. No factual basis whatsoever.

No you didn't say private businesses were the leaders in wealth redistribution and social responsibility. You said that position should not be taken by government. Since we know that private business will never assume the role then government must. Government's role is the protection and management of its citizens. ALL of them jm. Not just business owners. Business is not more important or worthy than social responsiblity. Society only thrives when business serves society as well as benefits from society. It is a symbiotic relationship between the people, business, and government.

Yes, I would trust the government way before I'd trust business. For all its inefficiencies and frailties it is ultimately answerable to public forces.
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Old 04-21-2016, 11:31 AM
 
Location: On the water.
10,312 posts, read 6,375,988 times
Reputation: 8593
Quote:
Originally Posted by jm1982 View Post
Plenty to choose from on this list
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_states

But I'm guessing you would say all those places are great places to live and we should adopt the policies that those countries have .

I guess the United States should try to be more like Cuba right?
Sorry, but the declaration Surprise made was that socialist nations are folding. Your list is, well, just a list of nations. Which socialist nations are folding? And, if you have any examples, why are they folding? The only nations I am aware of that are "folding" are doing so to basically ethnic / populist pressures to reorganize having nothng to do with their socialism.
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Old 04-21-2016, 11:35 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles (Native)
24,151 posts, read 13,675,815 times
Reputation: 11364
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulemutt View Post
Sorry, but the declaration Surprise made was that socialist nations are folding. Your list is, well, just a list of nations. Which socialist nations are folding? And, if you have any examples, why are they folding? The only nations I am aware of that are "folding" are doing so to basically ethnic / populist pressures to reorganize having nothng to do with their socialism.
Ok you win...all those nations are great and successful nations!

I guess folding or 'failing' is relative right.
I mean Cuban and North Korean leaders are all going to say how great their country is.

I've seen what socialism does to countries , it's not good.
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Old 04-21-2016, 11:39 AM
 
234 posts, read 134,706 times
Reputation: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulemutt View Post
Sorry, but the declaration Surprise made was that socialist nations are folding. Your list is, well, just a list of nations. Which socialist nations are folding? And, if you have any examples, why are they folding? The only nations I am aware of that are "folding" are doing so to basically ethnic / populist pressures to reorganize having nothng to do with their socialism.
USSR folded.

N. Korea, Cuba, and China are pretty awful places to live for the vast majority of the population. And I've personally been to 2/3 of those countries and can attest to this statement.


Why would anyone want the U.S. to become a socialist country. You would seriously have to be completely insane.
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