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Old 05-10-2020, 03:04 PM
 
Location: On the water.
21,653 posts, read 16,194,427 times
Reputation: 19748

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter View Post
The U.S. Constitution is federal.


I see the issue. When you said, ""The constitution isn’t being violated. It expressly provides for emergency powers.", you didn't understand the word "expressly".


It has been a very long time since Jacobson v Massachusetts (1905), which was about the right of Massachusetts to compel vaccinations for the good of society. The court held 7-1 that for public good, vaccinations could be mandated, overruling personal liberty, even though personal liberty isn't really mentioned in the body of the Constitution. Jacobson attempted to use the Preamble as a basis for personal liberty. The court rejected that argument.

But the court specifically discusses the power of the legislature to enact such laws, it never mentions executive ukase as a means of imposing such measures.

Two months after Jacobson the court found for personal liberty in the Lochner case against the NY Legislature trying to impose maximum work days, saying it was “an unreasonable, unnecessary and arbitrary interference with the right and liberty of the individual".

Six of the nine members of the Jacobson court were also the ones who decided Plessy v Ferguson, possibly the worst, most incorrect SCOTUS ruling ever.

There hasn't been a serious look at Jacobson because the power of the legislature of a state to pass laws balancing public health vs individual liberty hasn't been controversial. That is not the situation we are in right now. As far as I know all these policies on closing some businesses, not others; banning church services in person; quarantining otherwise healthy people etc, have all been executive orders, not legislation. Yes governors have emergency powers, but those too have limitations. I'd be surprised if any state government tried to defend its actions under Jacobson v Massachusetts or Gibbons v Ogden.
Every state also has its own constitution. You didn’t specify which you were referring to: federal or state.

And, you want to debate the semantics of the word “expressly”? I guess that could be a fair argument. On the one hand it is defined to mean ‘spelled out distinctly’. On the other hand, quite a raft of constitutional scholars seem to be taking the position that the constitution does clearly spell out that emergency powers are a tool of the executive ... by the very nature of the structure of the branches.

Now, you want to hang the credibility of your position on a semantical argument - rather than on substance of positions? That’s called ‘Sophistry’. Lol. Knock yourself out.

Historical precedents over hundreds of years demonstrate that both federal executives (POTUS) and state executives (governors) have emergency powers to restrict freedoms under certain circumstances for limited periods of time. The very fact that the federal legislature and every state legislature has granted its executives those powers by virtue of ’expressly’ stated Acts - kinda proves these are accepted at every level of legislative and legal scrutiny - except fringe challenges, eh?

Bottom line appears that you are concerned that Governor Newsom is trying to seize new powers at the peoples’ expense ... and that this is unconstitutional. Apparently what he’s been doing IS constitutionally supported in all 50 states as well as at the federal level. Unless you can demonstrate that these actions are uniquely benefiting Newsom, or parties he favors, at the expense of the citizenry - you haven’t got a case. Newsom gains no financial or other reward or security. Neither is he doing anything unique to benefit his political standing or party. Many governors of both parties have enacted strict controls of similar nature across the country. And none of these are being codified for perpetuity.
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Old 05-14-2020, 12:08 AM
 
Location: South Orange County
51 posts, read 31,441 times
Reputation: 121
The bottom line is that the virus has a mortality rate of about .03. It as higher in Italy due to having a higher than average elderly population.

That low a mortality rate simply doesn’t justify the ridiculous closure of businesses, beaches, etc.
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Old 05-14-2020, 07:07 AM
 
Location: Living rent free in your head
42,777 posts, read 26,067,151 times
Reputation: 33906
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaminoDelAvion View Post
The bottom line is that the virus has a mortality rate of about .03.
The bottom line is that an unsubstantiated claim like that ^ is meaningless.
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Old 05-16-2020, 11:31 AM
 
Location: South Orange County
51 posts, read 31,441 times
Reputation: 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
The bottom line is that an unsubstantiated claim like that ^ is meaningless.
Then what, pray tell, is the correct rate?
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Old 05-16-2020, 11:34 AM
 
Location: On the water.
21,653 posts, read 16,194,427 times
Reputation: 19748
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaminoDelAvion View Post
Then what, pray tell, is the correct rate?
It is unknown at this time still ... due to poor and absent testing.
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Old 05-16-2020, 11:44 AM
 
Location: South Orange County
51 posts, read 31,441 times
Reputation: 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulemutt View Post
It is unknown at this time still ... due to poor and absent testing.
That’s certainly true however the United States is conducting the most tests per capita.

It also stands to reason that far more people are or have been infected than the numbers show. Admittedly, the death rate can be manipulated too by not at attributing cv deaths to cv but to another cause such as heart disease. All that said, the mortality rate looks very low and appear not to justify draconian measures and infringements on free movement etc. No wonder the governor is backing off and fast.

The distinction between state and federal Constitutions is really a silly distinction in that state constitutions can not restrict rights found in the Federal constitution.
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Old 05-16-2020, 12:45 PM
 
Location: On the water.
21,653 posts, read 16,194,427 times
Reputation: 19748
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaminoDelAvion View Post
That’s certainly true however the United States is conducting the most tests per capita.

It also stands to reason that far more people are or have been infected than the numbers show. Admittedly, the death rate can be manipulated too by not at attributing cv deaths to cv but to another cause such as heart disease. All that said, the mortality rate looks very low and appear not to justify draconian measures and infringements on free movement etc. No wonder the governor is backing off and fast.

The distinction between state and federal Constitutions is really a silly distinction in that state constitutions can not restrict rights found in the Federal constitution.
You are wrong on every count. As of May 11th the US was testing at a per capita rate that places it 4th among countries. And the federal constitution provides for state governance to take emergency measures not specified.
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Old 05-16-2020, 03:51 PM
 
Location: South Orange County
51 posts, read 31,441 times
Reputation: 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulemutt View Post
You are wrong on every count. As of May 11th the US was testing at a per capita rate that places it 4th among countries. And the federal constitution provides for state governance to take emergency measures not specified.
Could you please provide a source for this assertion? Thanks.

State constitutions supersede the Federal constitution? Please tell me how that works.

So the mortality rate is high?
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Old 05-16-2020, 04:09 PM
 
Location: So Ca
26,653 posts, read 26,614,297 times
Reputation: 24707
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaminoDelAvion View Post
the United States is conducting the most tests per capita.
How the U.S. compares to other countries in coronavirus tests conducted per million people:
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...pore-hong-kong

Trump’s COVID-19 Testing Claim Is Way Off:
https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/tr...im-is-way-off/
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Old 05-16-2020, 04:16 PM
 
Location: On the water.
21,653 posts, read 16,194,427 times
Reputation: 19748
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaminoDelAvion View Post
Could you please provide a source for this assertion? Thanks.

State constitutions supersede the Federal constitution? Please tell me how that works.

So the mortality rate is high?
You can look up the testing rates for yourself ... this is the information age.

I didn’t say state constitutions supersede federal constitution. I said the design structure of our government at both federal and state levels allows for emergency powers. Look up “emergency powers acts” and educate yourself. All 50 states have passed Emergency Powers Acts. The federal structure accommodates by virtue of authorizing states rights:
Quote:
Tenth Amendment: “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”
And I didn’t say the mortality rate is high ... or low. I said it’s unknown.
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