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Old 10-27-2014, 08:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by censusdata View Post
A couple thoughts...

1. Louisville isn't regarded as Southern by people in Mobile. Fargo people also wouldn't consider it Midwestern. People from Indy and Cincinnati view it as Southern, Nashville people think it's Midwestern. Pretty much supports the claim of a mix, only question being on which culture group is more represented

2. In terms of original settling groups there is a general difference between urban Catholics of German and Irish descent vs rural Protestants of Scots Irish / English / German Protestant origin. The original settling group of every place considered Southern would be the former group (other than the French area of Louisiana), the unquestionably Midwestern areas were settled almost exclusively by the first group. Their are only 3 Catholic majority areas in the South that I am aware of that are considered totally Southern in culture: The West Central KY Irish / English Catholics, French Cajuns, and Texas Hill Country Germans. Everywhere else they were a small minority among Whites.

The typical urban Northern Catholic lives in the same neighborhood or part of the city where their ancestor arrived between 1860 and 1900, that ancestor likely lived in a city in Germany or Ireland. The typical Southern Protestant was of a mixed Scots Irish / English / Dutch / French / Protestant German heritage and has ancestors who repeatedly moved across large distances (generally non Anglicans came to port at Philadelphia, moved down the current I-81 corridor and settled in VA or the Carolinas before headed westward) on the American frontier. They had close personal experiences with the Native Americans and often intermarried with them. The frontier experience and exchange of ideas about nature with Indians is why Southerners are so much more into outdoor activities like hunting and fishing than Northerners.

3. In 2014 Southerness or Midwesterness is not about who your ancestors were but who you feel that you are. I have family members who share my typical Southern ancestry but are Northerners because they were raised outside the South ( in Philadelphia, Seattle, and Ohio). I also have a cousin whose dad was of immigrant Polish roots in Massachusetts and she's as Southern "by the grace of God" as they get. Even among my own siblings there differences. 3 of us are quite Southern while 2 are more Midwestern. 1 is actually quite hostile towards all things associated with rural KY and uses a mock Eastern KY accent every 5 minutes to mock things seen as low class.

Nature decided for me because despite living in greater Cincinnati until age 4 I've always had a very thick Mid South accent. No matter how I dress, act, how much education I have as soon as I open my mouth I am perceived as being Southern, or in negative context a hillbilly.
Well as you know already, my Kentucky roots come from the southern shores of the Potomac river in SW Maryland just across from eastern Virginia. Even though Maryland was a Catholic colony, my people were heavily persectued, not just for being Catholic, but "English" catholic, which was really looked down upon, almost like traitors, because alot of English Catholics didn't support alot of the subsequent Anglican Kings after Henry as rightful heirs.

They left the Midlands to Maryland because of persecution and followed a few hundred or so other Engl Catholic families from Leicestershire to "Port Tobacco" in SW central/southern Maryland ( close to DC ) After the Revolutionary War, they recieved land grants on the "Rolling Fork"river in what is now Marion ( then Washington ) county Kentucky and immigrated, coming through the gap on the Wilderness Rd. My 5th great grandaddy was 7 years old at the time, my 6th, just in his 30's. They moved with several other Engl Catholic families, some last names you might recognize around the Louisville area as well, namely: "Mattingly" "Brown" "Livers" "Howard" "Birch" "Rummage" "Hinton" and many others.

Some of my kin still live in that area. During the civil war, the family was somewhat divided, and sympathetic to the south and even though considered themselves "southerners" were against secession and the war in general. One served as a Ky homeguard, another one fought in a regiment with Tennessee volunteers ( made up of middle Tennesseans and folks from central/southern Kentucky )

When my 2nd great grandfather was born, his older brother inherited the farm so with some money, he bought what is now "our old homeplace ( as we call it ) and is still in our family today. In the late 1800's, they bought 150 acres in Hancock County Kentucky, built a dirt floor one room cabin and later the old homeplace. My grandfather and my mom was born in this house. The farm is still in our family today and I have a 2nd cousin that currently lives in the "old Homeplace" as we call it. It's about 10 miles or so south of the Ohio river and Tell City Indiana and Hawesville Kentucky. My family still lives in this area as of today, everyone.


 
Old 10-28-2014, 04:44 PM
 
Location: "Daytonnati"
4,244 posts, read 7,135,801 times
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Quote:
They moved with several other Engl Catholic families, some last names you might
recognize around the Louisville area as well, namely: "Mattingly" "Brown"
"Livers" "Howard" "Birch" "Rummage" "Hinton"
and many others.
"Spalding" and "Cecil" are two others.

Yeah, good post, the Catholic thing in Louisville has a heavy Irish side to it, which makes the place more like New Orleans a bit vs like Cincy or Indianpolis, which seemed to get more Germans..

But the wrinkle in the religous mix is indeed the rural Kentucky Catholics who moved into town to work in the factories...moving from Nelson, Marion, Washington counties....and is one of the things makes Louisville so heavily Catholic...and is maybe another marker of Louisville as a border city that doesn't neatly fit regional pigeonholes.

(tho we could say its part of "secret" or obscured region...the Ohio Valley...say 50 miles either side of the Ohio river...as sort of the shading of South into Midwest and vice versa...).

The discussion of how Southern is Louisville is pretty old...it was part of our community "conversation" even back in 1971, when I moved to Louisville. The Gateway to the South, but now Possibility City. Possibly Southern, but definetly a place unto itself!
 
Old 10-28-2014, 05:41 PM
 
Location: New Albany, Indiana (Greater Louisville)
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Actually know some Washington Co Mattingly's.. one my sisters in Lexington is neighbors with an older couple of them. They seem very Southern and country. Good folks.
 
Old 10-29-2014, 12:53 AM
 
7,054 posts, read 16,631,263 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dayton Sux View Post
"Spalding" and "Cecil" are two others.

Yeah, good post, the Catholic thing in Louisville has a heavy Irish side to it, which makes the place more like New Orleans a bit vs like Cincy or Indianpolis, which seemed to get more Germans..

But the wrinkle in the religous mix is indeed the rural Kentucky Catholics who moved into town to work in the factories...moving from Nelson, Marion, Washington counties....and is one of the things makes Louisville so heavily Catholic...and is maybe another marker of Louisville as a border city that doesn't neatly fit regional pigeonholes.

(tho we could say its part of "secret" or obscured region...the Ohio Valley...say 50 miles either side of the Ohio river...as sort of the shading of South into Midwest and vice versa...).

The discussion of how Southern is Louisville is pretty old...it was part of our community "conversation" even back in 1971, when I moved to Louisville. The Gateway to the South, but now Possibility City. Possibly Southern, but definetly a place unto itself!
Great post. It wouldn't be argued time and again if it weren't a nice mix. I still say it is a historically Midwestern city with heavy southern overtones that did see itself as part of rebuilding the "south" post civil war. Today, it shares as much in common with New Orleans as it does with Pittsburgh. It really is a hybrid.
 
Old 10-29-2014, 09:29 AM
 
1,394 posts, read 2,228,755 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dayton Sux View Post
"Spalding" and "Cecil" are two others.

Yeah, good post, the Catholic thing in Louisville has a heavy Irish side to it, which makes the place more like New Orleans a bit vs like Cincy or Indianpolis, which seemed to get more Germans..

But the wrinkle in the religous mix is indeed the rural Kentucky Catholics who moved into town to work in the factories...moving from Nelson, Marion, Washington counties....and is one of the things makes Louisville so heavily Catholic...and is maybe another marker of Louisville as a border city that doesn't neatly fit regional pigeonholes.

(tho we could say its part of "secret" or obscured region...the Ohio Valley...say 50 miles either side of the Ohio river...as sort of the shading of South into Midwest and vice versa...).

The discussion of how Southern is Louisville is pretty old...it was part of our community "conversation" even back in 1971, when I moved to Louisville. The Gateway to the South, but now Possibility City. Possibly Southern, but definetly a place unto itself!
The surname "Spalding" I don't know any of those but "Cecil" yes, quite a few of them and also "Mudd" "Bowling" "Russelberg" "Mayfield" "Mills" and some others I can't think of. Most, if not all English Catholic families from southern and central Maryland.

I also have some ancestors that are from Nelson county, down around an area of Nelson county called "Balltown" just south of Bardstown and also a few others that lived across the line in Washington county. Most though lived in the area of Raywick Kentucky and Loretto/Holy Cross in Marion county. All of my kin that still lives over in Nelson, Marion, Washington counties are all very distant cousins, my more immediate family is all in Daviess, Hancock and Ohio counties over in NW Kentucky nowadays and has been since the late 1800's early 1900's. I also have some very distant Kentucky kin in southern Missouri as well, but only a few.

None of them consider themselves any less than "southerners" although "Kentuckian" first, southern a close 2nd LOL. They love to hunt ( especially Deer, Turkey and Coon ) and have big gardens and a few still live on farms, and are HUGE UK fans, basketball fanatics!!

Here's a few more photos from my family there, including one of me. hope you enjoy them. I'm blessed to have these!

Me, at about 12 years old, Kentucky


My grandparents


One of my great greats


The ancestral cabin built by my 6th Great grandfather in central Kentucky, still in the family to this day, fully restored and being lived in by a distant cousin.

Last edited by EricOldTime; 10-29-2014 at 09:39 AM..
 
Old 10-29-2014, 09:41 AM
 
1,394 posts, read 2,228,755 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by censusdata View Post
Actually know some Washington Co Mattingly's.. one my sisters in Lexington is neighbors with an older couple of them. They seem very Southern and country. Good folks.
My aunt married a Mattingly, and my two cousins are his daughters, good Catholic family. His Mattingly family roots I'm sure are all from that same region, so more than likely, they are distant cousins. They had HUGE families. I'm the 2nd oldest of 32 grandchildren and I have 11 aunts and uncles, one aunt died of SIDS as a baby in the Old Homeplace, that house in the picture of my previous post. That's where all of them were born, mom included.

My mom and all, her brothers and sisters are more like best friends! They DO everything together and often get together, very close. My uncles are "workaholics" pulling 50/60 hours a week. One works as a foreman at a plant in Cloverport Kentucky on the Ohio river and two others work at a couple of plants in Hawesville Kentucky, and 1 more at a big plant across the river over in Indiana. The ONLY time they take a vacation, every year, is right about now, a few weeks for Deer season LOL!! A few of my first cousins are full time farmers raising cattle, Tobacco, Soybeans and Corn.

My uncle ( and cousins and aunt ) that lives in Louisville "he died of cancer sadly 2 years ago" was director of sales for a large Aluminum Company....they live in Anchorage Kentucky, my aunt and two cousins still live there on the east side of Louisville.

Last edited by EricOldTime; 10-29-2014 at 09:52 AM..
 
Old 10-29-2014, 08:20 PM
 
Location: Memphis
120 posts, read 267,085 times
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I currently live in Memphis and moved here from Indianapolis (one of several stops in my journey that started in NYC)...

I just spent a full weekend in LVL and can say, with utter certitude, that it has NOTHING in common with Memphis. I loved the city precisely because it it seems to have a wonderfully balanced mixture of a lot of different places. Memphis is five hours from everywhere (I need to go at least) and Louisville is two hours from those places so that's a big plus too...

I actually have started looking for a job there as, in only two years, I am sick of Memphis.
 
Old 10-30-2014, 03:53 PM
 
Location: New Albany, Indiana (Greater Louisville)
11,974 posts, read 25,332,828 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricOldTime View Post
. I'm the 2nd oldest of 32 grandchildren and I have 11 aunts and uncles,
It's amazing how many kids people had just a couple generations ago. My mom was 1 of 10 (+1 stillborn) and my dad was 1 of 10 also (4 from my grandma who died in childbirth at age 34 and 6 more with my step grandma). They must have felt like they lived in China lol. And in each case they all lived in a 4 bedroom house. Today people think each kid needs its own bedroom with a walk in closet. My mom was a teenager when they got electricity and air conditioning in the mid 1950s.
 
Old 10-30-2014, 04:03 PM
 
1,394 posts, read 2,228,755 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by censusdata View Post
It's amazing how many kids people had just a couple generations ago. My mom was 1 of 10 (+1 stillborn) and my dad was 1 of 10 also (4 from my grandma who died in childbirth at age 34 and 6 more with my step grandma). They must have felt like they lived in China lol. And in each case they all lived in a 4 bedroom house. Today people think each kid needs its own bedroom with a walk in closet. My mom was a teenager when they got electricity and air conditioning in the mid 1950s.
We Kentuckians sure do know how to procreate! How is it that Ky only has about 3,000,000 or so give or take ...and with all these babies everyone used to have?

I think we should change "Virginia Is For Lovers" to

"Kentucky Is For Lovers" literally

Well my great great, he had all boys and he told my grandaddy once ( I think half serious ) that he had as many boys as he could so they'd have to work the farm ( tobacco and such ) and that way he could go fishing and squirrel, coon and fox hunting all he wanted. That old man loved to hunt and run dogs.

And he wasn't kiddin either....cause that's exactly how it was LOL!!! At least according to pawpaw.

My mom remembers using the outhouse, she also remembers taking the bus to Hawesville and having to walk down the huge hill (knob) to catch the bus and it was nothing but an old dirt road back then. She also remembered doing homework to the light of an oil lantern and popping popcorn on the potbelly in the living room of the "Old Homeplace" She remembers the bookmobile coming once a month and drinking cool water out of cisterns in the barn with an old label ( she hated that cause stuff would fall in those cisterns

She also remembers licking the sap out of busted stalks of Sorghum Cane...stuff like that, setting Tobacco. My family has alot of stories about the old days in Ky. One of my favorite things to do is to sit around and listen to my grandparents or my aunts and uncles talk about what it was like to live in Kentucky back in those days LOL.

I experienced some of that staying 3 and a half months out of the year with granny and pawpaw....had some great times, my best memories!

Anwyays, we've drifted this to more of a Kentucky thread than just talking about Louisville LOL
 
Old 10-31-2014, 03:56 PM
 
Location: IL/IN/FL/CA/KY/FL/KY/WA
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In 1981, my mother (originally from Manhattan) and father (originally from Minneapolis) moved to Louisville from Minneapolis with family in-tow, and fell in love with the place. We got a home in Prospect for $103k (which my parents still live in today, although no-kids are left in a 5BR home). I was 5 y/o at the time, and spent 17 years in that home, seeing Prospect grow into the fancy suburban neighborhood it is today from the pop 3,100 that it was in 1981 (don't quote me on that figure, but it was really low).

There were many aspects of living in Louisville that seemed southern to me (The general conservatism, climate for the most part, accents, friendly and helpful demeanor) and some aspects that seemed Midwestern (although I can't name specifics off the top). I found there were some generations of racism there, but I also saw more integration there than you see in the south. Bussing was likely one reason for that. I enjoyed that diversity.

There are parts of Louisville that I adore and wish I could be back there to take advantage of. I love the people in the city, even strangers. I love the parks and the Highlands area. I really enjoy going to Louisville basketball and football games, and enjoyed going to Redbirds games when I was younger too. I love pretty much every aspect of being in Louisville in the fall. It brings back a lot of happy memories.

There are parts that make me glad I don't live there as well though. I'm not a fan of the UL-UK rivalry and all of the hatred between the two schools fans. It bleeds into every essence of the city, and I can imagine would make working life miserable if you missed the lottery and worked with a bunch of fans of the school you don't root for. I really like public transportation, and Louisville fails miserably there - TARC is terrible, no train service, and it'll be many years before the bridge projects ever finally complete. SDF is usually too expensive to fly out of, and you usually have to go to CVG or IND to get a much better fare for non-hub travel. I'm convinced it's because of the lack of education among the majority of both fan bases, but more so because of the racial divide between inner city Louisville and rural KY.

The women in Louisville weren't my type either. Either granola/North Face types or southern basic chicks (the pumpkin spiced latte, scarf wearing, sorority types). I know that's a bit of a generalization since I wasn't in Louisville for much of my dating years, but it was my observation during high school and the early part of college before I moved to Illinois. It doesn't seem to be a lot different when I come back home to visit my family either. I much prefer a more northern midwestern girl with a sarcastic wit and a dash of charm and vanity. There are some incredibly beautiful girls in Louisville though, but the ones I knew in high school have all (every single one of them) turned into crazy chicks.

However, now that I'm married and don't need to worry about that, and my wife now adores Louisville as much as I did growing up there - the only thing that really keeps us from moving back is the awful job market. It's not very diverse. It's dominated by a few select industries, and if you don't really specialize in that stuff, or don't want to go into business for yourself, it's pretty tough to get things like tech jobs or other analytical work unless in the healthcare or foodservice industries, which are quite boring.

I've also learned how awful of a rag the C-J is over the years. So much biased "news", it's no wonder they've lost as much money as they have. The best writers have all left too. Eric Crawford is one of the best, IMO.
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