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Old 05-19-2015, 01:05 PM
 
236 posts, read 316,556 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter1948 View Post
Lags? No way my friend.
Stories like this pop every day. Why do people leave cities like Indianapolis and Cincinnati? Well, because they are lame:

Gallery K & Coffeehouse serves up local coffee and art in Butchertown - Insider Louisville

Again, you guys commenting from your perch in California or Philly have no idea what is going on in every nook and cranny here in the ville. There is nothing flawed about Louisville. It is just plain awesome. It is soul, there are so many festivals, and is unique. I would say the only city nearby that has more amenities would be Nashville, and even then, it is just a different vibe with the country music scene and the massive Atlantification they are seeing in the Gulch and West End. Indianapolis? BLAH. Cincinnati? BORING. I can dig Columbus but the weather is awful and the people not as friendly. Oh and the music scene cannot touch Louisville's. Cleveland or Detroit? Just gross. Pittsburgh is pretty cool I guess. Like Louisville with pro sports and some more suburbs. We both agree about STL.

You will see in the next 5 years, as Louisville continues to explode with people like I referenced in the article above, how awesome Louisville is. You see, the difference between you and me is I have lived all over. Literally every where. I was raised in Chicago. I came back to Louisville because it is the city with the most kinetic energy of anywhere in the country in the medium large range. It reminds me very much, almost to a T, of Austin in the early 1990s before it "blew up." I continue to travel all around the country and do appreciate many other cities. I truly wish that Louisville could bring a little Portland or Denver this way with maybe a splash of Austin. But I also love Louisville for what it is and more, for what it is becoming.

You, having "grown up" in Louisville, see all the negatives. There is still a strong penchant for many young Louisvillians, usually in their 20s and 30s who move to a large coastal city and bash Louisville while saying "they still love it." These are the types of people that perpetuate its image as a slow, backward southern town. However, the fact of 2015 is that it couldn't be further from the truth.
You're not the only person to live in different places and travel haha. If anything you've continuely shown your ignorance of other places. To say that Louisville, or any city really, is perfect is pretty arrogant. One of the things I don't miss about Louisville at all is the idea among so many local people that the city is the greatest, most perfect place ever and if you don't agree there must be something wrong with you. Being critical is not bashing.

Does the city have a decent transit system? An urban market? A downtown grocery store with decent produce? Protected bike lanes? A good walk score? A historical, intact downtown? No. But it does have the Derby and everything that comes with it, a great park system, amazing historical neighborhoods, no traffic, lots of independent resturants for it's size and a cheap housing market. It's improving every day and developement is very high compared to previous years, but that's true of most urban areas around the country.
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Old 05-19-2015, 03:39 PM
 
11 posts, read 13,353 times
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Good summary from Kevin. Louisville's evolution certainly appears positive, but seems in line what is happening all over the country. IMHO, certainly no "boomtown" vibe here: it doesn't show in the numbers (average population growth, average wage growth, no sudden wealth generation due to great rises in home values), and it doesn't show on the street either. Nobody's tripping over all that stray rebar from the dozens and dozens of residential & commercial construction sites here. There's just doesn't seem to be any great pressure on land or labor, something which you typically associate with booming cities. Also, whatever capital investment figures there are, half of it comes from putting eight additional lanes of highway traffic in between nulu and downtown. That doesn't sound exactly like something that's beneficial for the liveability of the urban core.

Also, do take a compliment Most people on this thread- either new or former residents - have been very positive about Louisville. Some criticisms, so what.

One small thing, a pet peeve if you will, is that I don't think "low cost-of-living" is something that should be touted as a pro for a city (any city really). It's kind of Louisville's trump card. But hey, the cost of living is low! It is just another way of saying low pay, which in turn usually has an underlying cause: slack job market, low productivity/lack of human capital; the first is not attractive to people thinking about moving here, the second is not attractive to high-growth businesses wanting to relocate here. What happens, is that it keeps people trapped in place. While you can live comfortably here, it prevents you from building a cushion and go elsewhere, a little bit like how getting paid in coupons of the company store kept people in place in as well. It's a tether, and I think many feel some kind of liberation when they finally cut it. Like those much maligned yuppies that are leaving, haha. Sure, they might have to pay more for housing elsewhere, but they'll also make more, which is just more freedom in absolute terms. The back-of-napkin math may work (hey, lower pay, but utilities are sooo cheap!), but there's a hidden long term cost (e.g. sitting on a house that won't pay for your retirement, less opportunity to leverage job-hopping into wage increases, ...). Low-wage-low-cost is a difficult catch-22 for a city to get out of. That said, I think Louisville's econ development choices are very pragmatic and appropriate for its strengths: hospitality, manufacturing, logistics, ... it makes sense yo, but these are not "boom" industries. Nonetheless good evolutions, and a perfect fit for the city.
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Old 05-20-2015, 05:51 PM
 
7,054 posts, read 16,635,008 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charliecharlie View Post
Good summary from Kevin. Louisville's evolution certainly appears positive, but seems in line what is happening all over the country. IMHO, certainly no "boomtown" vibe here: it doesn't show in the numbers (average population growth, average wage growth, no sudden wealth generation due to great rises in home values), and it doesn't show on the street either. Nobody's tripping over all that stray rebar from the dozens and dozens of residential & commercial construction sites here. There's just doesn't seem to be any great pressure on land or labor, something which you typically associate with booming cities. Also, whatever capital investment figures there are, half of it comes from putting eight additional lanes of highway traffic in between nulu and downtown. That doesn't sound exactly like something that's beneficial for the liveability of the urban core.

Also, do take a compliment Most people on this thread- either new or former residents - have been very positive about Louisville. Some criticisms, so what.

One small thing, a pet peeve if you will, is that I don't think "low cost-of-living" is something that should be touted as a pro for a city (any city really). It's kind of Louisville's trump card. But hey, the cost of living is low! It is just another way of saying low pay, which in turn usually has an underlying cause: slack job market, low productivity/lack of human capital; the first is not attractive to people thinking about moving here, the second is not attractive to high-growth businesses wanting to relocate here. What happens, is that it keeps people trapped in place. While you can live comfortably here, it prevents you from building a cushion and go elsewhere, a little bit like how getting paid in coupons of the company store kept people in place in as well. It's a tether, and I think many feel some kind of liberation when they finally cut it. Like those much maligned yuppies that are leaving, haha. Sure, they might have to pay more for housing elsewhere, but they'll also make more, which is just more freedom in absolute terms. The back-of-napkin math may work (hey, lower pay, but utilities are sooo cheap!), but there's a hidden long term cost (e.g. sitting on a house that won't pay for your retirement, less opportunity to leverage job-hopping into wage increases, ...). Low-wage-low-cost is a difficult catch-22 for a city to get out of. That said, I think Louisville's econ development choices are very pragmatic and appropriate for its strengths: hospitality, manufacturing, logistics, ... it makes sense yo, but these are not "boom" industries. Nonetheless good evolutions, and a perfect fit for the city.
Uh, have you been downtown lately? Tower cranes up all over the place! Just wait until the Omni breaks ground later this year. And don't forget, Louisville is most impressive in her neighborhoods.
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Old 05-20-2015, 05:55 PM
 
7,054 posts, read 16,635,008 times
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Originally Posted by Kevin1813 View Post
You're not the only person to live in different places and travel haha. If anything you've continuely shown your ignorance of other places. To say that Louisville, or any city really, is perfect is pretty arrogant. One of the things I don't miss about Louisville at all is the idea among so many local people that the city is the greatest, most perfect place ever and if you don't agree there must be something wrong with you. Being critical is not bashing.

Does the city have a decent transit system? An urban market? A downtown grocery store with decent produce? Protected bike lanes? A good walk score? A historical, intact downtown? No. But it does have the Derby and everything that comes with it, a great park system, amazing historical neighborhoods, no traffic, lots of independent resturants for it's size and a cheap housing market. It's improving every day and developement is very high compared to previous years, but that's true of most urban areas around the country.
Kevin, you actually make some good points. Louisville does have bike lanes that are dedicated on almost every street in the urban area now. I think it is Breckenridge or Kentucky streets that now has a semi protected lane. NO US City has a decent transit system with the exception of Chicago and NYC. Boston, DC, maybe San Fran have adequate systems, and Portland is the only smaller city with decent transit. So you totally lost me there. Tarc actually has q15-30 min service downtown and could do better, but transit sucks in EVERY single city in America except the ones I mentioned. Don't act like one rail line towns like Cleveland have "great transit."

Downtown is most DEFINITELY HISTORIC, and is mostly intact outside of the large parking lot corridors along second street and of course the SW quadrant of downtown. It actually DOES have a very high walk score. Urban minded Louisville natives who moved to the coasts like yourself are often its biggest critics. Again, I challenge you to come back and take one of my development tours.

Louisville is not the greatest most perfect city ever. But it has a much hipper, more progressive vibe than many surrounding cities.
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Old 05-20-2015, 09:43 PM
 
7,054 posts, read 16,635,008 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin1813 View Post
You're not the only person to live in different places and travel haha. If anything you've continuely shown your ignorance of other places. To say that Louisville, or any city really, is perfect is pretty arrogant. One of the things I don't miss about Louisville at all is the idea among so many local people that the city is the greatest, most perfect place ever and if you don't agree there must be something wrong with you. Being critical is not bashing.

Does the city have a decent transit system? An urban market? A downtown grocery store with decent produce? Protected bike lanes? A good walk score? A historical, intact downtown? No. But it does have the Derby and everything that comes with it, a great park system, amazing historical neighborhoods, no traffic, lots of independent resturants for it's size and a cheap housing market. It's improving every day and developement is very high compared to previous years, but that's true of most urban areas around the country.

How Louisville stacks up in such categories of commute times, riding bikes, and taking public transportation.

So let's look at actual data. This study looks at the 30 largest cities...it considers Louisville number 28, even though we know that's not really true. That counts much, but not all of the merged city. The merged city/county is over 750k.

The study found that Louisville has the 8th highest rate of transit use. That's right, it beat out some VERY "big boy" cities. And also, we are 12th in the percentage of bikers who bike to work. That is mighty impressive since much of that 600k population is actual what would normally be known as "suburbs" in most major metro areas. This is a testament to the inner core of Louisville being remarkably compact and despite what you say, very walkable in many parts. While it is true many of our bike lanes are simply white stripes on the side of the road with bike pics in them, in the last 2 years, alnost every major downtown street and even many suburban streets now have them (surprisingly, I think I saw them on Taylorsville Rd in suburban Jeffersontown recently)

Almost no one would dispute Louisville has a top notch park system. Yet, it objectively ranks very poorly in studies on parks, mainly because not all of them have the best sidewalks....the state of KY is mostly to blame here.
Also, Louisville is on average an older city, again, not because that is really true, but more so because the "city" includes a very large suburban population in the merged county.

The study also highlights the city's very short commutes (although I must admit traffic lately has been TERRIBLE, I think a combo of bridges and what I think are growing pains). Not a lot of our workers work at home...that is not surprising since most at home workers are in tech and we have a low number of tech jobs (although that is rapidly rising as I will post more on this at a later time).

Louisville has no jobs right? Again, all stereotypes:

http://insiderlouisville.com/busines...-10-city-jobs/


Walk scores? Again a bunch of crap. If you look at how the data is calculated, it is naturally biased against merged city-county governments. Thus it grossly underestimates the walkability of the urban core of "Nashville/Davidson" and "Louisville/Jefferson" and grossly overinflates geographically smaller cities (locally, think Cincinnati and St Louis).

Walkscore is GROSSLY flawed, and totally misses tons of things in Louisville. It mentions Smoketown as a top urban neighborhood when it is not. But want to compare apples to apples? Lets pit Louisville's top 5 walk score neighborhoods against Cleveland, a city AND metro area that is losing population and that was the attempt at a recent booster troll post by an Ohio forumer

https://www.walkscore.com/OH/Cleveland


https://www.walkscore.com/KY/Louisville-Jefferson



Louisville's top 5 beat Cleveland's top 5 in EVERY category. The same can be said of Louisville vs Detroit. Also, in Louisville, these walkable hoods are separated by a 5 minute car ride and maybe 10-15 min bike ride. In larger cities like Cleveland, it can be a good 30 mins between neighborhoods! yet, this website is so flawed it shows the population of the Highlands as 1500. That is just laughable! There is probably close to that in the string of highrises on Willow Avenue ALONE!

In this comparison, Cincinnati trumps Louisville or Cleveland in the top 5 walk score:

https://www.walkscore.com/OH/Cincinnati

This has mostly to do with the topography of the area creating a very dense CBD in a valley and the adjacent OTR, going up a hill. Yet talk to any native and suburban Cincinnatians, and the majority are still scared to death of downtown, and especially, OTR. They may go to a ballgame or out to eat, but that is it, However, this walkscore business is notably flawed as it leaves out the nicest and most premier and upscale walkable part of Cincinnati which is Mt Adams (I lived there and would hang at the Pavillion on the regular). Hyde Park anyone? The same can be said of Louisville. No Clifton or Crescent Hill? No Germantown or Butchertown? Seriously? Any who, my point is, Louisivlle is NOT all kool aid and cheerios, but it IS a grossly underestimated city that I still contend is among the coolest in the USA in its size range and many are discovering that and moving here now.

Last edited by Peter1948; 05-20-2015 at 11:25 PM..
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Old 05-21-2015, 08:16 AM
 
Location: Mahoning Valley, Ohio
416 posts, read 697,376 times
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Keep on bashing, Peter. You proved my point, exactly! Louisville can't hold a candle to cities like Cleveland and Cincinnati, and your insecurities towards both cities prove that. I appreciated the reputation points I got in this thread, though!
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Old 05-21-2015, 09:13 AM
 
Location: Mahoning Valley, Ohio
416 posts, read 697,376 times
Reputation: 432
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter1948 View Post
Kevin, you actually make some good points. Louisville does have bike lanes that are dedicated on almost every street in the urban area now. I think it is Breckenridge or Kentucky streets that now has a semi protected lane. NO US City has a decent transit system with the exception of Chicago and NYC. Boston, DC, maybe San Fran have adequate systems, and Portland is the only smaller city with decent transit. So you totally lost me there. Tarc actually has q15-30 min service downtown and could do better, but transit sucks in EVERY single city in America except the ones I mentioned. Don't act like one rail line towns like Cleveland have "great transit."

Downtown is most DEFINITELY HISTORIC, and is mostly intact outside of the large parking lot corridors along second street and of course the SW quadrant of downtown. It actually DOES have a very high walk score. Urban minded Louisville natives who moved to the coasts like yourself are often its biggest critics. Again, I challenge you to come back and take one of my development tours.

Louisville is not the greatest most perfect city ever. But it has a much hipper, more progressive vibe than many surrounding cities.
I also commented on your private message. You're taking this way out of line; I was just being matter of fact.

In bold. Like I said, I know you have not been to Cleveland. Really with "one rail" line towns. Red line, blue line, green line, waterfront line not to mention the Healthline BRT that has attracted attention from around the world. You can take these lines not just around the city, but out to the suburbs. Just the other day I left downtown on the blue line and ate at a restaurant on Shaker Square in the suburb of Shaker Heights. In fact, Cleveland's red line was the first transit rail line to connect its downtown with its international airport in North America.

If you are going to delete my posts, at least end with the bashing of other cities to try and prove your point. It's commonplace for people to put down other areas they find as competition, but then there is taking it too far. Someone can mention the slightest point in favor of another city over Louisville, that bothers you and you go on this diatribe putting down whatever city that was. Please stop with the bashing, otherwise, you are just doing the exact same thing you're calling other people out for.
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Old 05-21-2015, 11:35 AM
 
236 posts, read 316,556 times
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The article you sent stated, "We also ranked among the worst for use of public transportation, with 2.7 percent of our commuters taking the bus." So not sure where you got the impression Louisville beat out alot of cities.

The other article you provided stated that Louisville is 19th in job creation and at the end even alluded that many of the jobs only pay a fraction as well as they would in other cities. Not a ton to hang your hat on.

http://brokensidewalk.com/wp-content...01-620x440.jpg
When you look at all that red and purple (surface lots and parking garages)... it's hard to consider that intact. And I'm aware of all the developement around Liberty Green isn't shown on here. Sure it's all walkable, but when hardly anyone lives downtown you have to walk past huge surface lots... people drive, not walk. Heck, even when there are games at the arena most people pay $20-$30 to park right there when they could park for free if they were willing to walk 10 minutes.

I'll agree that looking at the walkscore of an entire city is foolhardy, but there are ratings for individual neighborhoods. If you look at where the OP is moving from to Louisville, all but one of Louisville's neighborhoods wouldn't make the top half of Philadelphia's neighborhoods. That's ok, it doesn't mean Louisville is bad, it just means it's you need a car for most of your errands. The OP is going to have to make an adustment, there won't be any more corner stores or transit that comes very often (15 min headways are considered a minimum in the planning communtiy) that will go to a different part of town. The OP may like trading the walkability for being able to afford a much larger place. Lots of people do.

I should also point out that walkscore looks at how realistic it is to achieve daily errands by walking. Mount Adams is great if you're walking to dinner or a bar, but there are no doctors, dentists, clothing stores, and really no way to get food unless you only eat microwave dinners and ice cream from UDF haha. And from what I understand, since the opening of Washington Park, downtown and OTR's bad reputations have largely been eliminated.
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Old 05-21-2015, 03:11 PM
 
7,054 posts, read 16,635,008 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMahValley View Post
I also commented on your private message. You're taking this way out of line; I was just being matter of fact.

In bold. Like I said, I know you have not been to Cleveland. Really with "one rail" line towns. Red line, blue line, green line, waterfront line not to mention the Healthline BRT that has attracted attention from around the world. You can take these lines not just around the city, but out to the suburbs. Just the other day I left downtown on the blue line and ate at a restaurant on Shaker Square in the suburb of Shaker Heights. In fact, Cleveland's red line was the first transit rail line to connect its downtown with its international airport in North America.

If you are going to delete my posts, at least end with the bashing of other cities to try and prove your point. It's commonplace for people to put down other areas they find as competition, but then there is taking it too far. Someone can mention the slightest point in favor of another city over Louisville, that bothers you and you go on this diatribe putting down whatever city that was. Please stop with the bashing, otherwise, you are just doing the exact same thing you're calling other people out for.
I am not bashing anything. You specifically referred to the people of Ky as lesser and disparaged them. I simply posted that I thought Indianapolis was boring (it is), and that Cincinnati is lame (I stand by by my opinion). I lived there are travel with such regularity that I could probably show you some things there you never knew existed. I have lived in more cities than you can imagine. I know what I am talking about.

Wrong again my friend. So you want to count the Green and Blue line as two lines? Come on my friend. It is basically the same line that each has a slightly different terminus. Even then it only functions to connect downtown to areas 90% of metro Cleveland will never go to in their life and passed their heyday in 1940. The Waterfront line? You want to count a mile of track that is an extension of the Blue/Green line? I don't think so. This leaves us with the Red line. Ok, I will give you that. So "one line"shoudl have been "two very short and small lines with almost zero suburban service to any nice suburban area the well heeled actually live in "Cleveland" Shaker heights is an "inner ring" or "streetcar suburb." That is not a true suburb and you know it. If that is a suburb than the Highlands is also a suburb. We have taken that red line from near Berea with my in laws live to Indians games downtown. But that is about the only thing it is good for. You won't find business travelers on it from the airport to downtown hardly ever? Why? They are scared of its criminal reputation. Cleveland is a rough town. I am glad to see the development downtown but the difference between Cleveland and Louisville was that it was historically much bigger after WW2, so there is SO much more blight and vacant housing to clean up. The BRT line? What is so special about that? It is just a bus with a dedicated lane. Louisville has several bus lines that function just as well as that. Louisvilles 4th street and Market Street Trolleys serve the same function as the Cleveland Waterfront line, only on wheels a much lower burden to taxpayers than rail. Rail is not a viable option in small to medium cities and I stand by my notion there are only 2 American cities where you can truly live carless (NYC and Chicago), and only 5 where you can at least consider it (DC, Boston, San Fran, mayyyyybe Philly or Portland or the likes)

So far, no one has been able to refute all the facts and data regarding how Louisville is being recognized as a top American city in its size class in just so many areas. And if you don't think Louisville is in a boom , you are in for a surprise. The only thing holding it back from a Nashville style boom is the anti business and agrarian minded politicians in the state capitol .


Now.....back to the OP, you cannot realistically live in ANY American city outside the ones I listed above without a car unless you can walk to work and you have a great bike.

Last edited by Peter1948; 05-23-2015 at 06:43 AM..
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Old 05-21-2015, 03:21 PM
 
7,054 posts, read 16,635,008 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin1813 View Post
The article you sent stated, "We also ranked among the worst for use of public transportation, with 2.7 percent of our commuters taking the bus." So not sure where you got the impression Louisville beat out alot of cities.

The other article you provided stated that Louisville is 19th in job creation and at the end even alluded that many of the jobs only pay a fraction as well as they would in other cities. Not a ton to hang your hat on.

http://brokensidewalk.com/wp-content...01-620x440.jpg
When you look at all that red and purple (surface lots and parking garages)... it's hard to consider that intact. And I'm aware of all the developement around Liberty Green isn't shown on here. Sure it's all walkable, but when hardly anyone lives downtown you have to walk past huge surface lots... people drive, not walk. Heck, even when there are games at the arena most people pay $20-$30 to park right there when they could park for free if they were willing to walk 10 minutes.

I'll agree that looking at the walkscore of an entire city is foolhardy, but there are ratings for individual neighborhoods. If you look at where the OP is moving from to Louisville, all but one of Louisville's neighborhoods wouldn't make the top half of Philadelphia's neighborhoods. That's ok, it doesn't mean Louisville is bad, it just means it's you need a car for most of your errands. The OP is going to have to make an adustment, there won't be any more corner stores or transit that comes very often (15 min headways are considered a minimum in the planning communtiy) that will go to a different part of town. The OP may like trading the walkability for being able to afford a much larger place. Lots of people do.

I should also point out that walkscore looks at how realistic it is to achieve daily errands by walking. Mount Adams is great if you're walking to dinner or a bar, but there are no doctors, dentists, clothing stores, and really no way to get food unless you only eat microwave dinners and ice cream from UDF haha. And from what I understand, since the opening of Washington Park, downtown and OTR's bad reputations have largely been eliminated.
The purple is parking garages....by the way, at least 4 of those red lots are being filled with infill as we speak and I think that picture is old enough that 2 already have been filled. You keep focusing on downtown, when that is not the soul of Louisville. The soul lies in its neighborhoods. You mentioned Louisville doesn't have any corner stores....are you kidding? Corner "quick marts" are on the corner of every other block of old urban nabes like Old Louisville, Germantown , the Highlands, an even the Indiana downtown suburbs. This shows that you do not have an intricate street by street knowledge of Louisville that I do.

Look, I get what you guys are saying. You drive in from Cincinnati on 71...if you didn't know better, you would not know its developed the whole way in because of the trees and the 2 lanes. Then you get off downtown on third/second or 9th street, and drive by several parking lots. You head to 4th Street Live and say to yourself "this city sucks." Well I got news for you that you are not looking at it the right way. Again, back up your posts with data like me if you want to make assertions.

Again, if you guys come to Louisville like you say you do (and I recommend you do at least for Forecastle), I would recommend you PM me and I will show you SO MUCH you had no idea existed all around the city and how there is infill from restaurants to retail to historic rehabs and new construction going up in EVERY single urban neighborhood. The national press notices Louisville time and again. It is just not as frequent for cities in Ohio or Philly (and anyone in Ohio would agree, and the population stats show, that Columbus is the nicest city in Oh and is actually the most similar to Louisville with Short North and German Village reminding me of several parts of Louisville, only more Midwestern).
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