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Location: New Albany, Indiana (Greater Louisville)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cryptic
Are we also going to remove statues commemorating Washington and Jefferson? Both of them owned slaves as well.
The difference is people like Washington, Jefferson, Wilson, etc did other things that laid the foundation for improving everyone's lives. I'm unaware of anything the Confederacy stood for that would've helped anyone out in the future. The CSA was created by and for the rich White male planter class.
In hindsight I don't understand many people nostalgia for the Civil War, especially the CSA.
First, the South greatly benefited by losing. Today it is wiping out the Northern economy. Had the South became independent the economy would likely still be struggling as there would've been little investment in education and public works.
Second, even had the CSA won slavery would've went away by 1900 anyways, so 1 million people died for nothing.
Third, much of America's modern wealth comes from winning both world wars. Victory in both is far less certain if there are two Americas, each with it's own plan of action. If the CSA decided to support Hitler and Japan suddenly North America is a war zone. I don't understand how someone could look back with pride at our world war success and then lament a united America.
The difference is people like Washington, Jefferson, Wilson, etc did other things that laid the foundation for improving everyone's lives. I'm unaware of anything the Confederacy stood for that would've helped anyone out in the future. The CSA was created by and for the rich White male planter class.
In hindsight I don't understand many people nostalgia for the Civil War, especially the CSA.
First, the South greatly benefited by losing. Today it is wiping out the Northern economy. Had the South became independent the economy would likely still be struggling as there would've been little investment in education and public works.
Second, even had the CSA won slavery would've went away by 1900 anyways, so 1 million people died for nothing.
Third, much of America's modern wealth comes from winning both world wars. Victory in both is far less certain if there are two Americas, each with it's own plan of action. If the CSA decided to support Hitler and Japan suddenly North America is a war zone. I don't understand how someone could look back with pride at our world war success and then lament a united America.
I think the nostalgia or interest really in the Civil War runs much deeper than that. This war was one of the most defining events in our nation’s history especially as to how we define ourselves as a people. It’s interesting prior to the war when people would write about the US, they would word it “the United States are” As in the United States are a nation of former colonies. After the war it became “the United States is”. For those of us who are history nerds it’s just having an intense curiousness and coming to an understanding of…who were these people? What would it have been like walking the streets back then?
Then there is the well known aphorism “those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it”
I think the nostalgia or interest really in the Civil War runs much deeper than that. This war was one of the most defining events in our nation’s history especially as to how we define ourselves as a people. It’s interesting prior to the war when people would write about the US, they would word it “the United States are” As in the United States are a nation of former colonies. After the war it became “the United States is”. For those of us who are history nerds it’s just having an intense curiousness and coming to an understanding of…who were these people? What would it have been like walking the streets back then?
Then there is the well known aphorism “those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it”
KY was a pro union state, it never seceded, and even though Louisville had a pro confederate faction, it was overwhelmingly a union stronghold.
The confederate monument has no place at a public university. I REALLY like the idea of using it to mark the unknown confederate soldiers graves in Cave Hill. Those soldiers still deserved to be honored as they are part of the reason we have the full United States.
KY was a pro union state, it never seceded, and even though Louisville had a pro confederate faction, it was overwhelmingly a union stronghold.
The confederate monument has no place at a public university. I REALLY like the idea of using it to mark the unknown confederate soldiers graves in Cave Hill. Those soldiers still deserved to be honored as they are part of the reason we have the full United States.
Hey Peter if you get a chance open the link I posted at the opening of the thread. Just read the introduction of the book, its about 6 pages. I appreciate your enthusiasm for Louisville and I think this would give you a better understanding of the city and state historically, it really helps put this whole thing into context. As I mentioned earlier, why would a city that was a union stronghold erect a 70 Foot Confederate Monument in one of the most prominent places in the city?? In many ways the monument represents more than just the Confederate dead, it symbolizes a people having problems assimilating to a new reality and clinging to the past.
Thanks on the Cave Hill thumbs up. That really seems like a natural fit.
the different bewteen washington and the confederate davis is, that davis lost the war, that how they feel about it, they just dont want no losers standing around in the square
Are we also going to remove statues commemorating Washington and Jefferson? Both of them owned slaves as well.
Big difference. Neither of them succeeded from their country in order to keep slavery alive. Their legacy is deeper than that.
Also, before someone says: "well then we have to tear down such and such historical building because yada yada..." a building doesn't honor a figure like a statue does, often in very prominent locations in a city.
Are we also going to remove statues commemorating Washington and Jefferson? Both of them owned slaves as well.
Washington went to great lengths to free his slaves, providing for their freedom after his death. Martha Washington actually had freed all of their slaves prior to her death.
Given Washington's stature and the pro-slavery feelings in southern states, it was difficult for Washington to act sooner without precipitating a political crisis that would have divided the nation.
Anybody that doubts Washington's greatness should read James Thomas Flexner's "The Indispensable Man," an acclaimed biography of Washington. According to Flexner, Washington actually anticipated the Civil War and a northern victory. That's a heavy burden to weigh on an individual who had risked his life and fortune to found a nation. I've often wondered if that is not why Washington freed his slaves, hoping to set an example that would have precluded the tragic, bloody inevitability that anchored his concerns about the future of his newly born and vulnerable nation. Washington was so concerned with the establishment of the new nation, that, according to Flexner, he amazingly remains the only President to visit widely every state in the nation while in office, even though there were virtually no interstate roads at the time.
Many African Americans also served in the Continental Army, and likely Washington had appreciated their loyalty and excellence in service.
More than many other founding founders, Washington also bought into the principles of the Declaration of Independence, and the concept of democratic rule, famously both resigning his command of the Continental Army rather than seizing control of the government, an action that amazed the world and eventually Napoleon, and by refusing to run for a third term as President.
I once read that Napoleon's great lament was, "They wanted me to be a Washington."
Washington was born into a slave society, and yet was able to transcend the values of his youth.
When I think of the way that modern America is dealing with the catastrophic onslaught of climate change, arguably our moral challenge instead of slavery, I believe none of us should throw stones at Washington. Washington not only voiced his support for noble principles, he attempted to live by those principles and risked everything to advance the principles embodied in the Declaration of Independence.
On the subject at hand, I can easily understand why the Univ. of Louisville would not want a Confederate statue in a prominent position on its campus. Despite "lost cause" revisionism, most Civil War historians, such as Pulitzer Prize winner James McPherson, recognize that slavery was the predominate cause of the Civil War. Why wouldn't most modern students, especially African Americans, feel anything but abhorrence about a statue celebrating the defenders of slavery? Perhaps the statue is even seen as detrimental when recruiting African Americans, including athletes.
Location: New Albany, Indiana (Greater Louisville)
11,974 posts, read 25,462,489 times
Reputation: 12187
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnBoy64
. As I mentioned earlier, why would a city that was a union stronghold erect a 70 Foot Confederate Monument in one of the most prominent places in the city?? In many ways the monument represents more than just the Confederate dead, it symbolizes a people having problems assimilating to a new reality and clinging to the past.
Thanks on the Cave Hill thumbs up. That really seems like a natural fit.
The obvious answer is during the war Louisville was mostly pro Union but during reconstruction many people felt sympathy for how the South was being treated. Remember that the war started about preserving the Union, Lincoln - an extreme Liberal by his day - decided a couple years in that the war would be about ending slavery. Many people were for preserving the Union but against a war to free Blacks. While in hindsight we know that the war caused slavery to end the average Union soldier was no more or less racist by modern standards as the average Confederate soldier.
As such I support moving the monument away from its prime location it a more suitable location such as a Confederate cemetery. But again, this should be decided by a popular vote for Jefferson County residents.
Another issue is that the monument is a great landmark. Had it simply been a small statue of Jefferson Davis it would've been moved decades ago. If the monument is moved I think we should place a new monument equally as grand in its place, maybe for war dead in WW1 or 2 which 100% of Louisvillians and Kentuckians fought on the same side.
While in hindsight we know that the war caused slavery to end the average Union soldier was no more or less racist by modern standards as the average Confederate soldier.
Really? I don't know that and I highly suspect this statement is false.
Many Union soldiers and leaders, such as James A. Garfield, were devout abolitionists. And consider that at war's end, a significant percentage of the Union Army was comprised of African Americans.
Individuals who are willing to die to free African Americans simply do not have the same racial attitudes as those who fought to continue their enslavement.
Despite the entreaties of Robert E. Lee, the Confederate Congress refused to allow the enlistment of African Americans into the Confederate Army.
Really? I don't know that and I highly suspect this statement is false.
Many Union soldiers and leaders, such as James A. Garfield, were devout abolitionists. And consider that at war's end, a significant percentage of the Union Army was comprised of African Americans.
Individuals who are willing to die to free African Americans simply do not have the same racial attitudes as those who fought to continue their enslavement.
Despite the entreaties of Robert E. Lee, the Confederate Congress refused to allow the enlistment of African Americans into the Confederate Army.
Union soldiers cared more about preservation of the Union than they did about freeing slaves. General Sherman famously burned a bridge in Georgia over a river where African Americans could have escaped. Sherman didn't care about blacks. And the vast majority of the North were not abolitionists.
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