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Old 05-21-2016, 09:08 PM
 
Location: Arch City
1,724 posts, read 1,102,763 times
Reputation: 846

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter1948 View Post
Here is a timely article.


Louisville was a UNION city....but there were plenty of confederate supporters:

Louisville's twisted Civil War story & the Confederate statue | WHAS11.com


Louisville only SEEMED pro confederacy after the war because as the second largest city south of the mason dixon line after New Orleans, Louisiville had to play both sides of the coin. Louisville was the place where cotton and the bounty of the south came to market via the steamboat trade, and later railroads, and made it to the industrial centers of the north. The article above shows how the confederates used scare tactics and took over the state of KY, thus making Louisville more of a "southern city" than it had been.

To those forumers who try to make Louisville look like a uniformly southern city like Jackson MS...it is strictly delusional. I am not sure why folks try to paint this picture other than to distance the city from the one they live in? anyone who has spent any amount of time in Louisville would note that it is a very mixed bag city.

Louisville's embrace of "southern" started more with Mayor Farnsley in the 1950s....he saw the growth in the south yet he was a progressive....Louisville integrated most everything, including schools, well before anywhere in the true south. Louisville is not true south....a Midwest city with a mix of south, midwest, and ohio river valley. Those trying to make Louisville sound like Jackson MS....well should spend more time in Mississippi to experience the real south!
There is no such thing as "Ohio River Valley"...you are making that up as a way of diverting some of its Southerness away..the Ohio River Valley consists of Northeastern, Midwestern, and Southern cities. Louisville is not a Midwestern city aside from some Midwestern demographics. It is Southern culturally and it is Southern linguistically. There is no Ohio River Valley accent...dialect maps place Louisville firmly in the South. You obviously don't like the South or facts and want to be Midwestern yet you've only lived in the city a few years, not your whole life. There are more Louisvillians who identify as Southern than Midwestern. Get it through your head and stop making your pathetic impassioned pleas for us to accept it into the Midwest standing. We never have and we never will.

 
Old 05-22-2016, 07:06 AM
 
6,980 posts, read 4,050,906 times
Reputation: 3479
An understanding of the Civil War is critical to the debate about relocating a Confederate war statue.

Persons who are apologists for the Confederacy, and who attempt to argue such foolishness as that the racial attitudes in the Confederate army were the same as in the Union army, and that racial attitudes in the Union were the same as in the Confederacy, obviously will support leaving the statue in a prominent position.

Those who (very correctly IMO) recognize that the Civil War largely was fought over slavery (a point vigorously argued by James McPherson, arguably the greatest living Civil War scholar) don't want a statue, especially one that is prominently located, that honors the defenders of slavery. These persons view slavery as an evil practice, especially when it's predicated on race (unlike in the Roman Empire).

Allowing such a prominently located statue on a major university campus poses all sorts of problems in the 21st century. Visitors easily and correctly could surmise that the presence of the statue reflects the university's values and perception of history. In the case of most scholarly persons, a statue honoring the defenders of slavery obviously diminishes the university's image.
 
Old 05-22-2016, 09:34 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles
449 posts, read 144,276 times
Reputation: 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative View Post
Those who (very correctly IMO) recognize that the Civil War largely was fought over slavery (a point vigorously argued by James McPherson, arguably the greatest living Civil War scholar) don't want a statue, especially one that is prominently located, that honors the defenders of slavery. These persons view slavery as an evil practice, especially when it's predicated on race (unlike in the Roman Empire).
With the exception of a tiny fraction of Hate groups in this country, I donít think anybody North, South, East or West in todayís America who doesnít view slavery as an evil practice regardless of their stance on monuments. Thatís a bit much there and it statements like these that can come across as being morally superior and provokes feelings of being attacked and can result in people digging in their heels and defending something that is abhorrent. Itís divisive language and not to over dramatize this but this dynamic is one of the many reasons the country landed in a civil war. Your points are valid and backed up with facts, the delivery needs a little work.

When I saw this story brake there was a bit of concern on my part of a risk of this being mishandled and resulting in a Confederate flag day in downtown Louisville. And I think I can speak for many of us from Louisville and those of us who currently live there, that this is the last thing we want to see and could harm the cityís image. Not saying it will happen but I lived through forced busing in the mid 70ís and believe me it was ugly and those undercurrents though dormant are still right underneath the surface, hopefully to a much lesser extent.
 
Old 05-22-2016, 01:01 PM
 
6,295 posts, read 13,176,543 times
Reputation: 2789
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnBoy64 View Post
With the exception of a tiny fraction of Hate groups in this country, I donít think anybody North, South, East or West in todayís America who doesnít view slavery as an evil practice regardless of their stance on monuments. Thatís a bit much there and it statements like these that can come across as being morally superior and provokes feelings of being attacked and can result in people digging in their heels and defending something that is abhorrent. Itís divisive language and not to over dramatize this but this dynamic is one of the many reasons the country landed in a civil war. Your points are valid and backed up with facts, the delivery needs a little work.

When I saw this story brake there was a bit of concern on my part of a risk of this being mishandled and resulting in a Confederate flag day in downtown Louisville. And I think I can speak for many of us from Louisville and those of us who currently live there, that this is the last thing we want to see and could harm the cityís image. Not saying it will happen but I lived through forced busing in the mid 70ís and believe me it was ugly and those undercurrents though dormant are still right underneath the surface, hopefully to a much lesser extent.
Hmm, I disagree. Granted, I didn't really visit Louisville until the 90s, and lived there for a brief period with my frequently traveling father. But I never noticed any racial undertones, and I actually spent 2 years in public schools. I am sure the 70s were MUCH different. I do have friends and colleagues who were long time Louisvillians who describe a much different place.

Today's Louisville is racially diverse, multicultural, accepting, and growing at its fastest rate in 100 years. The residential and commercial growth alone is impressive!
 
Old 05-22-2016, 08:32 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles
449 posts, read 144,276 times
Reputation: 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter1948 View Post
Today's Louisville is racially diverse, multicultural, accepting, and growing at its fastest rate in 100 years. The residential and commercial growth alone is impressive!
I really like what Louisville is becoming, it has an understated uniqueness and its a little quirky. But like I said I saw first hand the ugliness of that period in 1975, the most unsettling aspect was how much sway the klan had over a very large group of people at that time and it was a really odd combination of rednecks using hippie protest tactics. It's just best left in the past. Given that happened in relatively recent history, here is my concern on the monument, just a concern but something to mindful of. My concern is that this becomes a legal fight where people choose sides and then you have a politician that comes along and demagogues the issue to stir up base emotions that will enhance their popularity. Not that politicians do such things...no...never. But that seems to be trendy these days so it is something to keep an eye on.
 
Old 05-22-2016, 09:05 PM
NCN
 
Location: NC/SC Border Patrol
21,136 posts, read 21,125,167 times
Reputation: 23163
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnBoy64 View Post
This is actually my first actual thread on city data so here it goes. It appears the mayor and the University of Louisville made a decision to remove the 70 foot Confederate Monument from its current location to be relocated to a more appropriate location. And predictably that action was met with a lawsuit by Everett Corley, a GOP Congressional hopeful, and co-plaintiffs, which include the Sons of Confederate Veterans Kentucky Division, Inc. So the stage is set. The purpose of this post is to hear people’s views on this somewhat sensitive topic. My own views reflect that of the Mayor Greg Fischer’s who stated

"It's always important to remember and respect our history, but it's equally important to reflect on that history in proper context,"
"This monument represents our history -- a painful part of our nation's history for many — and it's best moved to a new location"

I am a native Louisvillian and always had mixed views on this particular monument. I do not believe that any culture should revise or erase its history. In my view the problem with the monument is that it stands out like a sore thumb being on U of L’s campus. It is just not a good fit. Also, this would not be the first time the monument has been relocated. I think there would be a more appropriate place in the city to place it such as Cave Hill Cemetery. Section A is a burial site for over 5,500 soldiers killed in the Civil War and other American Wars. To me this would be an appropriate noncontroversial location to honor the city's past.

For those of you interested here is a link to a book that helps explain how and why this confederate monument and others were erected in Kentucky first place. The introduction of this book is only 6 pages long and would IMO assist in an informed conversation on this topic.

https://books.google.com/books/about...page&q&f=false

I know Louisville's regional identity has been discussed to death on these boards. One thing you may want to consider is that Kentucky's regional identity has perplexed historians for generations, so it is somewhat apropos that would show up on these boards. I find this particular issue to be current and warrants conversation.
Is that cemetery you want the statue to be moved to a national park? I recently read that a (I believe senator) from California presented a bill to remove all confederate statues from all national parks or national somethings.

Now what I think of it. First I think the decision for what happens with statues in any state should be the decision of every person in that state. That is what the civil war was about, states rights.

Memorial Day is the day women from the North and the South put flowers on the graves of all soldiers who fought in that war. When you start asking anybody from that era to remove their monuments, you are erasing the good will that happened on that Memorial Day.

We stayed home today and watched First Baptist Church in Atlanta. His sermon was about an unforgiving spirit. I wish everybody in America could have heard the sermon especially those who keep throwing up to us that our ancestors had slaves. People in the North had slaves too. Those monuments should be a victory cry for all blacks because that is the war that resulted in their being freed.

Let's celebrate all Americans from the North and South and stop the hatred and get rid of the unforgiving spirit. Southern ancestors are loved just as much as Northern ancestors and we are very proud of my husband's great grandfather who was wounded at Gettysburg spent much time as a POW and died somewhere on his way home. He was honorably fighting for his state and I assure you he cared nothing about being able to own a slave because he could never have afforded one. I understand that Northern people can feel very guilty about what they did to the South but blaming the victim is not going to help anyone. We forgave you and went on with our lives long ago but it is really insensitive for anyone to neglect to let us honor our fallen and the flag they fought under. Those statues and that flag is not going to hurt anyone. They are half the history of this nation at that time. The only thing that is causing this movement is an unforgiving spirit and the hatred in the hearts of those that want to do it. You can remove every remembrance of that war but it will not take the hatred from your hearts. It will just be something else we will have to forgive you for doing. And I assure you that as long as I live I will always appreciate and love our ancestors so by removing the monuments you will have wasted time accomplishing nothing.

Last edited by NCN; 05-22-2016 at 09:28 PM..
 
Old 05-22-2016, 09:15 PM
 
6,295 posts, read 13,176,543 times
Reputation: 2789
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCN View Post
Is that cemetery you want the statue to be moved to a national park? I recently read that a (I believe senator) from California presented a bill to remove all confederate statues from all national parks or national somethings.

Now what I think of it. First I think the decision for what happens with statues in any state should be the decision of every person in that state. That is what the civil war was about, states rights.

Memorial Day is the day women from the North and the South put flowers on the graves of all soldiers who fought in that war. When you start asking anybody from that era to remove their monuments, you are erasing the good will that happened on that Memorial Day.

We stayed home today and watched First Baptist Church in Atlanta. His sermon was about an unforgiving spirit. I wish everybody in America could have heard the sermon especially those who keep throwing up to us that our ancestors had slaves. People in the North had slaves too. Those monuments should be a victory cry for all blacks because that is the war that resulted in their being freed.

Let's celebrate all Americans from the North and South and stop the hatred and get rid of the unforgiving spirit. Southern ancestors are loved just as much as Northern ancestors and we are very proud of my husband's great grandfather who was wounded at Gettysburg spent much time as a POW and died somewhere on his way home. He was honorably fighting for his state and I assure you he cared nothing about being able to own a slave because he could never have afforded one. I understand that Northern people can feel very guilty about what they did to the South but blaming the victim is not going to help anyone. We forgave you and went on with our lives long ago but it is really insensitive for anyone to neglect to let us honor our fallen.
No...it is a nationally famous cemetery....think a couple presidents, the KFC guy and others buried there, but it is not a National Park. But one of the most beautiful attractions in Louisville, especially in the spring. Serene. Peaceful, lush.
 
Old 05-23-2016, 06:35 AM
 
1,064 posts, read 1,152,406 times
Reputation: 1053
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
Are we also going to remove statues commemorating Washington and Jefferson? Both of them owned slaves as well.

It's not about the slave owning issue per se. Sure some Founders had slaves. But Confederates fought the bloodiest war in our history to keep an entire race of people enslaved and were very anti-Democratic at a time the North was becoming more democratic. The Confederacy is the antithesis of the US and thus honoring it seems bizarre to many people.
 
Old 05-23-2016, 07:10 AM
 
Location: New Albany, Indiana (Greater Louisville)
9,583 posts, read 20,459,831 times
Reputation: 9077
Some context for people not familiar with the location of the Confederate Monument...


It is on a public right of way surrounded by land the Univ of Louisville controls. The city street that the Greek Housing is off of used to be named Confederate Plaza, a decade ago it was renamed Unity Plaza.


https://www.google.com/maps/@38.2184...7i13312!8i6656


The schools response until recently was to leave the statue but nearby have Freedom Park, which has monuments dedicated to Civil Rights leaders. It's located just a block from the Confederate Monument.


https://www.google.com/maps/@38.2204...7i13312!8i6656


https://www.google.com/maps/@38.2203...7i13312!8i6656
 
Old 05-23-2016, 08:10 AM
 
9,658 posts, read 7,638,989 times
Reputation: 17502
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter1948 View Post
No...it is a nationally famous cemetery....think a couple presidents, the KFC guy and others buried there, but it is not a National Park. But one of the most beautiful attractions in Louisville, especially in the spring. Serene. Peaceful, lush.

I assume you are referring to Colonel Harlan Sanders, the original "Kentucky colonel" and creator of Kentucky Fried Chicken.

I also assume that any true Louisvillean - shoot, any real Kentuckian! - would know this gentleman's name and identity, and would have more respect than to refer to him as just "the KFC guy".

If you want to represent Louisville accurately, I suggest that you learn more history of that fine city and of the commonwealth in which it is located.
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