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Well, here we go. That was as predictable as it is tiresome. Please leave the petty sniping out of the conversation, and try to confine this to a simple factual discussion. You do this all the time – whenever someone says something about Louisville that you don’t like, you look for ways to discredit the poster. Can we please try to remain objective?
OK, great. It’s a “silver cycling city.” So tell us – what exactly does that mean?
I guarantee you don’t know the answer to that question. It’s just the only thing you could find that seemed to support your position, so you threw it up there without having any clue what it means. You’ll probably google it now, but when you put it up there you had no idea what it meant, and you still don’t. It’s just something that sounded good.
Go find out what the criteria are for a silver city designation, then come back here and use that data to refute my argument that this is not a good city or state for long distance road training. Until then, it doesn’t mean a thing.
Oh, and while you're looking for supporting data, be careful about using that site. They're the same ones who ranked Kentucky the 2nd most bicycle-unfriendly state in the country. You want to be careful not to use that data point.
Please stop derailing discussions with psychological analyses and personal remarks that have no relevance to the topic.
And here you fall back on another of your favorite logical fallacies, the appeal to authority. If you want to win an argument, you need to make a better argument, not just keep pontificating about what an expert you are. If you have such a pulse on the city, throw up some factual data to refute the facts that I am posting. All you’re doing is complaining because you don’t want to hear the data I post; that’s not a counrterargument.
And now you’ve really jumped the shark. Minneapolis is the city where I used to log 5000 miles a year, most of it on long-distance road rides. 40 or 50 miles west to Hutchinson or Watertown, 40-some miles east to Wisconsin, 40 miles northeast to Taylor’s Falls, north to Anoka, northwest to Elk River, southeast to Hastings, southwest to Shakopee, south to Rosemount or Apple Valley… and on every ride, I’d see scores or even hundreds of cyclists crowding the wide, spacious, safe roads. I used to see more cyclists in a single daylong ride than I’ve seen in Kentucky the entire 5 years I’ve lived here. When was the last time you saw hundreds of cyclists in a single day anywhere in Kentucky, much less in Louisville? I'll answer that for you - never. And why do you think that is?
Minneapolis is light-years ahead of Louisville as a cycling city, and anyone who is familiar with both cities wouldn’t even question that.
You know absolutely nothing about this subject. You are in completely over your head. Why do you keep pressing this?
Two things. First of all, we’re not talking about “just about every other ranking” – we’re talking about health care. Please stop trying to muddy the waters. And the second thing is, if you think the poll I posted is “laughable”, explain why you think it’s flawed. I didn’t exactly make it up on my own, you know. Or find some rankings that you support your argument. And good luck with that, especially if this next one is the best you’ve been able to do so far…
You need to read your own link more closely. Yes, Kosair has several specialties that are nationally ranked in the 30s and 40s, but the hospital itself is not ranked nationally, and no other hospital on that list has any specialties that are ranked nationally.
Your own link supports my argument and undermines yours.
Then perhaps you’re overly sensitive, because when I re-read that post, I’m unable to think of any reason that anyone would gather that from my post. It was very balanced and objective by any reasonable standard. Why do you take these things so personally?
What does my perspective have to do with it? Unlike you, I am backing up everything I say with factual data. Do you think that if I lived somewhere else I’d have found different links for the health care rankings? Do you think if I lived somewhere else the road system in and around Louisville would suddenly become straighter, wider, and safer? Please just address the facts, and stop trying to find reasons to discredit me personally.
Fail again. Almost all of my Louisville-area friends live in the Highlands, J-town, and Crescent City, and St. Matthews. Most of my friends live in the mountains, and I spend very little of my free time in Oldham. I’m either in greater Louisville or the mountains most of the time. I know Kentucky far better than you think, and in many ways probably a lot better than you do when you consider how unrealistic and one-sided so many of your posts are.
Peter, we can go back and forth on this for page after page, but unless you can find factual data that refutes the factual data that I post, you’re just going to keep losing. I’ve said this many times - as far as I know this forum is not intended to be a branch of the tourism department; people who are thinking of making some of the most important decisions of their lives come here looking for factual information to help them decide whether to pick up and move to an entirely new part of the country. When they ask honest questions, they deserve honest answers, and your cheerleading and browbeating of anyone who does try to post factual data does those users a very grave disservice.
Where am I cheerleading?
Crescent City? enough said. Where is that neighborhood? Did "google" tell you?
Louisville has been recognized by many organizations as a good cycling city.
Again, you are using outdated data and putting me down by calling me a "cheerleader" and part of the "tourism bureau." It couldn't be further from the truth. I am just so sick and tired of people coming and making Louisville look like something its not.
Kosair subspecialty rankings start in the 20's nationally, not 30's.
Louisville is at or below average in many categories....cycling and healthcare are NOT two of those categories.
Even though your posts are condescending towards me, I would be happy to meet with you and show you around. This is a city of nooks and crannies, and a place where you need to "know what is going on." Honestly, with a home base in the suburbs, you simply cannot have as much time to explore the urban areas which provide a cyclist the best experience. And that's ok!
This is a different type of cycling, but Louisville hosted probably the top event in cyclocross just last year:
This is probably the oldest and maybe the largest cycling organization. You are correct.....KY does suck for cycling...it is ranked 49. Louisville does not. That's why its a silver city and ranked top 50.
Ok, I'll show you exactly what it means. But shouldn't you know if you are an avid cyclist?
Being in Minneapolis you were spoiled by a Gold tier city. But honestly, its so darn cold there, when can you ride? 6 months? There are only 26 gold or platinum cities. Louisville is in the next bunch and honestly, even compared to Minneapolis, it's stats aren't far off. Louisville needs to improve its protected lanes and its arterials plus commuters. That will drastically change in 3 years with THOUSANDS of apartment units under construction.
Did you know Louisville has less fatalities than Minneapolis? It is a safer biking city overall, and I wouldn't consider it super safe for biking honestly. Compare the report cards....what objective data have you given?
And on the healthcare thing....I am IN the healthcare field! Louisville is an excellent healthcare city. Your blanket generalizations regarding Louisville's healthcare....I am sorry but I take offense to it. I am going to let it slide because I realize you may have had one or two quacks and then used that to generalize it to a metro of 1.3 million....and I cannot fathom having a wife so ill to have to travel to so many hospitals. I actual travel to hospitals all over the US, but it is for work and business, and often for pleasure in my city explorations.
You are allowed to make opinions. We get it. I have many opinions too. I like Louisville but hate the cold, dislike rednecks and anti-intellectuals, and wish there was heavy rail and trolleys. I'd like to see some more infill on some downtown parking lots (which has already started). I'd like to see the recent surge in violence down (although well below national big city average). But Louisville has SOOO much more to like than these negatives. You like some stuff here and some stuff you don't. But making mass generalizations are dangerous and also not helping anyone.
They don't have the same to offer.....Louisville is substantially bigger....1.3 million to 500,000 metro. Louisville offers much more in arts, culture, shopping, everything, without the hassle of big city issues mostly.
Comparing Louisville to Lexington is like comparing Boise to Salt Lake or even Portland.
That said, Lexington is a nice town, very quaint, highly educated, and a decent medical center. and its closer to the mountains. But its more of a college town and EVERYTHING revolves around "Big Blue"
The hostile take-over by UofL isn't really a secret, how are you not seeing it? Two big ass campuses...medical buildings and housing poping up like tree-of-heaven and poke, their own security aaannnddd police department.
Location: New Albany, Indiana (Greater Louisville)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaxRhapsody
The hostile take-over by UofL isn't really a secret, how are you not seeing it? Two big ass campuses...medical buildings and housing poping up like tree-of-heaven and poke, their own security aaannnddd police department.
The only hostile takeover by U of L is regarding the Yum Center lease which completely blocks sharing it with an NBA team. The employment and research growth at U of L is a great thing for the city.
I lived most of my life in Northern Wisconsin and the Twin Cities, and have also live in Northwestern Montana and California. So some of what I say is filtered through the lens of having lived in those areas. Also, like you, I'm somewhat progressive and an avid cyclist - I own 7 bikes (2 mountain bikes, 3 road bikes, and 2 racing bikes), and would generally log around 5000 miles per season in the Twin Cities. So that gives you some idea of the frame of reference that I'm coming from.
Mosquitoes - I hate 'em too. I would say they're bad here in some areas, but really not as bad as Wisconsin and Minnesota. It rains a lot down here, and the terrain is rocky, so water tends to pool up instead of soaking into the soil. It's definitely worse than Montana or California, but it's probably as good as you're going to find anywhere east of the Mississippi. Many other parts of the South are way worse.
Diversity - that's a broad subject, but in general I would give the area pretty high marks. It's still the South, and it's still the Bible Belt, but one thing I learned soon after moving here was that the stereotypes are greatly exaggerated. By and large, people here tend not to judge, and accept people for what they are as long as you do the same. Yeah, it's still the South, so you're still going to see a lot of Confederate flags and run into a few intolerant bigots, but it's definitely not the prevailing culture. My wife is a minority, and we have never had an issue. As non-Christians, we're always aware that we're in the minority, but nobody has ever felt the need to remind us of it.
At the same time, you won't see much diversity in terms of demographics - at least, not compared to metropolitan areas on the coasts or in the North. It's not that people of other cultures aren't welcome, because i believe they really are - I think it's just that there doesn't tend to be much here to attract them.
In a similar vein, you mentioned progressivism. Sorry, but that's in short supply. You'll find pockets of it in some Louisville neighborhoods, and overall the area is closer to a progressive vibe than many other areas of the South, but it's not a progressive culture. Louisville is a fairly liberal city by southern standards, but I wouldn't call it a progressive liberalism at all. In most of Kentucky, today's Democrats would have been Republicans 20 or 30 years ago. The liberalism tends to be very moderate as opposed to progressive, but at the same time, people here tend to be very respectful of opposing political views and rarely seem to judge - unlike some of the more progressive areas that I have lived in during my life.
Traffic - yeah, traffic is thick at rush hour, and around the malls on weekends, but no worse than most cities. Part of the problem is that the hilly geography forces a lot of major roads into narrow corridors, which jam up quickly when traffic volume spikes. Large areas of the city have only a few ways in and out, so it can clog up pretty fast. But even at that, it's nothing at all like California, Atlanta, or many other major cities.
Airport - Louisville has pretty decent service for a small hub airport, and Cincinnati (a medium hub) is a reasonable drive. Unless you’re looking somewhere on the coasts, you’ll be hard-pressed to find a similarly-sized airport with better service. Unless you're a really frequent traveler, that shouldn't be a problem for you at all.
Eating and drinking - music scene is decent, and the food scene is excellent for a Southern city of this size. As far as nightlife is concerned, there's not much of a downtown; most of the nightspots are spread out in the neighborhoods. That's not say that there isn't any club scene downtown, because there is - it's just that unlike a lot of cities, most of the nightlife seems to be less centralized. If you like to go out at night, you'll find things to do.
Now, for other side of the coin....
Bicycling - no offense to Peter, but from a bicyclist's point of view, there's no way at all that Louisville is one of the top bicycling cities in the country. It's a terrible place for serious bicycling. The city makes occasional half-hearted efforts to cater to cyclists, but it's pretty pathetic, and there's no reason to think that's going to change. The city has a decent network of trails, but you really can't rack up serious training miles on urban trail networks, and if you want to do any significant road-riding, you're taking your life into your hands. Louisville (and Kentucky as a whole) has one of the highest crash rates and highest fatality rates for cyclists in the country. Roads are narrow, hilly, and winding, people drive like lunatics, and because bicycles are so rare here, they're not expecting to see one - so they're not looking out for them.
The League of American Cyclists placed Kentucky 49th on their list of bicycle-friendly states last year. As much as I love cycling, I don't even ride anymore. I went from 5000 miles a year to 0, and I'll never do any serious riding again as long as we live here. Up north I'd do around 20-30 miles a day on weekdays, and around 70 to (rarely) 100 on weekends, but down here the country roads are so winding and hilly that people can't see more than a quarter mile - and when they're roaring along at 50 miles an hour and come over a hill, there you are, on a narrow road with no shoulder. If road riding is important to you, you won't do much of it here.
Health care - mediocre at best, generally poor. Healthcare in Kentucky is consistently ranked in the bottom 10 states.
My wife is disabled, and I have a couple of medical issues myself, so we have a lot of experience with the health care system in this region. We're fortunate enough to have found an excellent internist in Bardstown, but for any kind of specialist we usually go to Cincinnati, sometimes Nashville, or even Indianapolis. That's not to say there aren't good specialists in this area, but when trying to find doctors who are up to date on the specialties we need, we consistently found that the specialists here are miles behind their contemporaries in neighboring states. Cincinnati is one of the top cities in the country for health care, and that kind of culture seems to attract the best and the most cutting-edge doctors.
Another thing you want to be aware of if you’re moving from a cooler, drier climate is that Louisville is the worst city in the country for allergies. Nobody ever seems to ask about that when checking out the area, and I suspect it’s because a lot of people don’t have allergies where they live now, so it doesn’t occur to them – but when they get down here, they suddenly find they have a lot of allergies. That was what happened to me… I never had an allergy issue in my life until I moved here, but within 3 days after moving, I found out what allergies were all about. I suffered constantly for the first couple of years, but the last year or two it seems to have leveled off somewhat. I may be adjusting to the environment; I don’t know for sure yet.
If you're into serious outdoor recreational pursuits, you might also want to consider the climate. If you're used to northern and/or maritime climates, the heat and humidity can come as a rude shock. This is a humid subtropical climate zone. 90+ temperatures usually begin in early May and continue into October, with long periods of continuous 90-degree days throughout the summer. Dewpoints are generally in the 70s, and you can expect around 40 90+ days a year. Even if it doesn't hit 90, it's usually in the mid to high 80s, and with those dewpoints it's still pretty rough for extended outdoor activities. Some people handle it better than others, and only you can determine how it affects you personally.
I think a lot of people who are from this area are acclimated to it, but if you're from a milder climate, it can be a tough adjustment. I think I'm getting used to it, but I definitely don't spend anywhere near as much time outside in the summer as I was used to spending; when the heat index is 100 degrees or more, you just max out after an hour or two of strenuous exercise.
So, that's the good and the bad as i see it. Sorry if some of it sounds like a downer, but it is what it is. When people ask that kind of question on this forum, the advice tends to be very one-sided, and anything that could be construed as criticism is often met with a rather negative reaction - but if you're thinking of moving here you need to know all sides of the issue, not just the promotional material. There are a lot of good things about living here, but it's not necessarily all good, and you have a right to hear honest answers.
Having said that, if you do move here, let me know. Sounds like we have a lot in common, and I'd be glad to show you around and help you settle in.
The allergy thing is because we're in a valley...it's actually in some medical books as a disease. I here it goes away once you leave, but only the exlouisville users like OldHag and Censusdata can attest to that. biking can be hectic, there are a few streets where I'll ride the sidewalk, and 2nd st bridge, unless we rolling deep 10+...sidewalk. Can I have your bikes if you're not using them? My roadbike was stolen in Oct.
All I'm finding is Histoplomasis...that can't be it, unless we have some sort of immunity, like mexicans and their water.
The only hostile takeover by U of L is regarding the Yum Center lease which completely blocks sharing it with an NBA team. The employment and research growth at U of L is a great thing for the city.
I forgot the numurous sports fields, too. There's too much UofL crap in this city. It's only rival is Mariot. pretty sure UofL is going to turn in to the cities governing body.
And biking is fine in Louisville if you know what you're doing, much like London or NYC...gotta learn the system. I'll see lots of roadies around the east end in groups, Cyclist in Old Louisville, Btown rd. Many bike shops, and a co-op. I think bike theft has even went down. The Bike seems to be the mascot/main vehicle of our future evil dictator UofL.
Location: New Albany, Indiana (Greater Louisville)
11,974 posts, read 25,473,841 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaxRhapsody
The allergy thing is because we're in a valley...it's actually in some medical books as a disease. I here it goes away once you leave, but only the exlouisville users like OldHag and Censusdata can attest to that. biking can be hectic, there are a few streets where I'll ride the sidewalk, and 2nd st bridge, unless we rolling deep 10+...sidewalk. Can I have your bikes if you're not using them? My roadbike was stolen in Oct.
All I'm finding is Histoplomasis...that can't be it, unless we have some sort of immunity, like mexicans and their water.
I don't have severe allergy problems but I do notice I breath easier once I get south of Birmingham AL. After a couple days in Gulf Shores I suddenly realize I can get air without power breathing. The entire region has bad allergies due to all the trees but the river valley of Louisville adds the problem of air pollution. There are parts of the city like the West End / Rubbertown I would never live in simply because the air quality is awful.
I don't have severe allergy problems but I do notice I breath easier once I get south of Birmingham AL. After a couple days in Gulf Shores I suddenly realize I can get air without power breathing. The entire region has bad allergies due to all the trees but the river valley of Louisville adds the problem of air pollution. There are parts of the city like the West End / Rubbertown I would never live in simply because the air quality is awful.
I know many people who didn't have allergies at all, until they came here, it's that critical.
The only hostile takeover by U of L is regarding the Yum Center lease which completely blocks sharing it with an NBA team. The employment and research growth at U of L is a great thing for the city.
That's not a hostile takeover either. UofL didn't want a downtown facility - they wanted an on campus arena and they have the land to do it. For many years, Louisville played basketball games in a friggin Fairgrounds arena and weren't the primary tenant, getting trumped by the farm machinery show, tractor pulls, and a "host" of other events. So, yeah, they wanted to be the primary tenant in a location that wasn't what they wanted simply because the political folks wanted to create faster economic improvement in the Central Business District. That hasn't worked out as well as hoped, hence the payment issues the AA has had.
That being said though, UofL knows that they lose if an NBA franchise moves here, because there will be very little additional corporate money now being spread out instead of solely for them. However, there is incredibly limited support for an NBA franchise in Louisville anyhow, so the fact that the Yum Lease blocks sharing it with an NBA franchise is a bit moot.
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