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Old 08-21-2018, 05:53 AM
 
97 posts, read 78,158 times
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Obviously it was a shame that Louisville built the downtown bridge and didn't take 8664 seriously enough when it had the chance, but with the work that has been done, is it still possible to replace 64 west of the bridges with a surface level boulevard? As far as I can see no? And if public opinion continues shifting toward removing interstates from city centers and prioritizing urban living (or at least growing in equal measure along with suburban growth) was anything done that would make removing 64 impossible?


Certainly given the amount of money that was spent, this will be a very long time in the making, but was the reconstruction of spaghetti junction done in such a way that Louisville will be stuck with 64 west of the river forever? Should Portland really take off with the expansion of Waterfront Park West as well as general growth given most all of old city east of 65 will quickly be gentrified and quite expensive in the foreseeable and it's one of the few neighborhoods west of 65 people are seriously imagining radically changing in the near future that already has a lot of momentum (although I like Beechmont too, and that's definitely a growth area as well, and UofL definitely seems to be investing more to the south of campus given all the challenges that come with expansion north), I wonder if public demand will grow quickly to the point where Louisville is seriously considering it some time within our life times.
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Old 08-23-2018, 08:59 AM
 
Location: IL/IN/FL/CA/KY/FL
1,132 posts, read 817,293 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cubedeathk View Post
Obviously it was a shame that Louisville built the downtown bridge and didn't take 8664 seriously enough when it had the chance, but with the work that has been done, is it still possible to replace 64 west of the bridges with a surface level boulevard? As far as I can see no? And if public opinion continues shifting toward removing interstates from city centers and prioritizing urban living (or at least growing in equal measure along with suburban growth) was anything done that would make removing 64 impossible?


Certainly given the amount of money that was spent, this will be a very long time in the making, but was the reconstruction of spaghetti junction done in such a way that Louisville will be stuck with 64 west of the river forever? Should Portland really take off with the expansion of Waterfront Park West as well as general growth given most all of old city east of 65 will quickly be gentrified and quite expensive in the foreseeable and it's one of the few neighborhoods west of 65 people are seriously imagining radically changing in the near future that already has a lot of momentum (although I like Beechmont too, and that's definitely a growth area as well, and UofL definitely seems to be investing more to the south of campus given all the challenges that come with expansion north), I wonder if public demand will grow quickly to the point where Louisville is seriously considering it some time within our life times.
I wasn't a resident during the primary debate period, but growing up here and knowing many people who sought after the 8664 version, I can basically say it wasn't taken seriously at all despite the mostly sensible . The primary reason was that it would basically require most auto traffic to dump onto 264 in the West End, which if you're headed to the Highlands, Butchertown, Smoketown or NuLu, you really wouldn't have a good option other than to sit in downtown traffic on the "alternative, less ugly road that isn't a freeway" which, btw traverses through some of the rougher neighborhoods in the entire state.

If I were to have arrived here in the 50's and designed I-64 back then, I would have put it north of New Albany and had it connect with I-65 near Jeff/Clarksville instead of downtown. I'd also have ended the Watterson at Taylor Blvd and moved the Lewis/Clark bridge downriver to create a full loop around Elizabeth and connecting to I-64 around Lanesville using IN 11 as a guide.
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Old 11-30-2018, 05:31 AM
 
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I agree, 8664 was never taken seriously. The Powers That Be seemed to view it as a ridiculous idea dreamed up by some tree-huggers. Such a shame. But I doubt anything will be done now that the bridges project is complete.

Portland is already becoming gentrified, despite its reputation as being a "rough" neighborhood. Seems like a second generation has popped up, children of the "pioneers" who revitalized Old Louisville. The problem is that they often buy houses that have been cut into apartments and turn them back into single-family dwellings, displacing multiple families who are long-time Portland residents and are part of the fabric of that neighborhood.

Don't get me wrong, I've been a champion of historic preservation for 40 years. We lived in Old Louisville in the '80s and tried to buy the house we lived in and restore it, but we were young marrieds with a baby and couldn't afford it. We ended up buying in Crescent Hill and were only able to restore this house after we paid off our mortgage a few years ago.

I know a young couple (among many others) who have bought property in Portland and are restoring a house. Problem is, they are East Enders and are scared to even spend a night in their new house. If you're going to buy in a neighborhood, I think you need to learn to live with the vibe of that neighborhood. I also know a few long-time Portland residents and visit them often. I'm not scared at all.
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Old 11-30-2018, 04:31 PM
 
97 posts, read 78,158 times
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Originally Posted by couture57 View Post
I agree, 8664 was never taken seriously. The Powers That Be seemed to view it as a ridiculous idea dreamed up by some tree-huggers. Such a shame. But I doubt anything will be done now that the bridges project is complete.

Portland is already becoming gentrified, despite its reputation as being a "rough" neighborhood. Seems like a second generation has popped up, children of the "pioneers" who revitalized Old Louisville. The problem is that they often buy houses that have been cut into apartments and turn them back into single-family dwellings, displacing multiple families who are long-time Portland residents and are part of the fabric of that neighborhood.

Don't get me wrong, I've been a champion of historic preservation for 40 years. We lived in Old Louisville in the '80s and tried to buy the house we lived in and restore it, but we were young marrieds with a baby and couldn't afford it. We ended up buying in Crescent Hill and were only able to restore this house after we paid off our mortgage a few years ago.

I know a young couple (among many others) who have bought property in Portland and are restoring a house. Problem is, they are East Enders and are scared to even spend a night in their new house. If you're going to buy in a neighborhood, I think you need to learn to live with the vibe of that neighborhood. I also know a few long-time Portland residents and visit them often. I'm not scared at all.

Along with the reputation I think the distance of Portland from any of the East End and Highland amenities is going to make it challenging to really gentrify, other than proximity to work downtown. It's just so far relatively to everything people from the east side know. I think we'll definitely see Smoketown and Shelby Park and Phoenix Hill really have to get to 100% flipped and gentrified before there's pressure from people wanting to move into the city for Portland to really take off. But I too know several people who moved there from the east side who paid pennies on the dollar compared to others I know in Germantown and it really doesn't live up to it's reputation, while they're living mortgage free and enjoying the neighborhood. I'd definitely say it takes a much different kind of person than one who would buy a house in Shelby Park at the moment, and I don't blame them for being wary; it's still very much so in the beginning stages of being a neighborhood where a former east side resident would be comfortable at all hours.


Gill Holland and others always say displacement of people in Portland is a nonissue for the foreseeable future because of just how many vacant houses there are, and I think that makes sense. Look at how many houses in Shelby Park and even Germantown are still owned by long-time owners who have yet to cash in on how much their houses are now worth and still have relatively low rents with long-time renters who were there long before they really started to appreciate because they haven't renovated to charge more or sold yet. The small size of homes in Portland is a great opportunity though for couples and young adults. One problem with Old Louisville, and definite benefit in terms of keeping apartments from being merged so keeping rents low, is that the houses on average are so huge and it takes a substantial income to own and maintain a huge Victorian mansion. It's always baffling to me why Old Louisville isn't the premier urban neighborhood in the old city and why values lag behind Cherokee Triangle with a somewhat similar and contemporaneous housing stock, but I guess Louisville just doesn't have the population of people who can afford it who also want to live in the inner city yet to really start gentrifying it en masse, and that's a good thing but how long it can last is another question.


8664 is discouraging, but I always think about how quickly things can change. The original Penn Station in NYC was built to last an eternity but was torn down after only 53 years. People who built a Victorian mansion in Old Louisville in 1900 surely couldn't have imagined that 50 years later they'd be tearing them down and treating them as worthless. So anything really can happen, even if it seems impossible now.

Last edited by cubedeathk; 11-30-2018 at 04:57 PM..
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Old Today, 12:13 AM
 
6,327 posts, read 13,263,919 times
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Originally Posted by cubedeathk View Post
Along with the reputation I think the distance of Portland from any of the East End and Highland amenities is going to make it challenging to really gentrify, other than proximity to work downtown. It's just so far relatively to everything people from the east side know. I think we'll definitely see Smoketown and Shelby Park and Phoenix Hill really have to get to 100% flipped and gentrified before there's pressure from people wanting to move into the city for Portland to really take off. But I too know several people who moved there from the east side who paid pennies on the dollar compared to others I know in Germantown and it really doesn't live up to it's reputation, while they're living mortgage free and enjoying the neighborhood. I'd definitely say it takes a much different kind of person than one who would buy a house in Shelby Park at the moment, and I don't blame them for being wary; it's still very much so in the beginning stages of being a neighborhood where a former east side resident would be comfortable at all hours.


Gill Holland and others always say displacement of people in Portland is a nonissue for the foreseeable future because of just how many vacant houses there are, and I think that makes sense. Look at how many houses in Shelby Park and even Germantown are still owned by long-time owners who have yet to cash in on how much their houses are now worth and still have relatively low rents with long-time renters who were there long before they really started to appreciate because they haven't renovated to charge more or sold yet. The small size of homes in Portland is a great opportunity though for couples and young adults. One problem with Old Louisville, and definite benefit in terms of keeping apartments from being merged so keeping rents low, is that the houses on average are so huge and it takes a substantial income to own and maintain a huge Victorian mansion. It's always baffling to me why Old Louisville isn't the premier urban neighborhood in the old city and why values lag behind Cherokee Triangle with a somewhat similar and contemporaneous housing stock, but I guess Louisville just doesn't have the population of people who can afford it who also want to live in the inner city yet to really start gentrifying it en masse, and that's a good thing but how long it can last is another question.


8664 is discouraging, but I always think about how quickly things can change. The original Penn Station in NYC was built to last an eternity but was torn down after only 53 years. People who built a Victorian mansion in Old Louisville in 1900 surely couldn't have imagined that 50 years later they'd be tearing them down and treating them as worthless. So anything really can happen, even if it seems impossible now.
Excellent and astute analysis from someone who clearly knows these neighborhoods block by block, like me.
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Old Today, 03:19 AM
 
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Yes, excellent observations from both of you.

The problem with Old Louisville is the lack of basic services that people need - grocery stores, gas stations, drugstores, and banks. When we lived down there we used to shop at the Kroger that was between 2nd & 3rd Streets a little north of the area. But that store is gone. I don't know where Old Louisville residents go now - maybe the one down by the stadium. I am ashamed to admit that while I still go to church down there, I don't know as much about the neighborhood as I used to.

Portland is a little better - there is a nice big Kroger on 35th Street that has a pharmacy. Not a lot of banks & gas stations, though, unless you go down toward Broadway.

I understand what you mean about the number of vacant houses in Portland that displaced residents could move into. The main problem with that is that most displaced residents are renters who can't afford to buy a house at any price and make it habitable. There are a lot of Habitat houses in Portland, and I'm glad to see HFH doing work there. One of my friends lives in a Habitat house and she is so proud of it!

In addition to our own home in Crescent Hill (a 1924 bungalow), I own the house next door that I rent out. I've had the same tenant for 3 years and have never raised the rent, though I know I could get a lot more for it and will ask more whenever she moves out and I get a new tenant. Our own house is valued at about 10X what we originally paid for it, even after the drop in housing prices during the recession.

The Crescent Hill and Clifton areas are wonderful and I'm glad I live here. I spend a lot of time in the Highlands, though, and love that area as well. I used to own a business at Bardstown Rd. & Bonnycastle.
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