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Old 09-10-2008, 07:12 AM
 
Location: Louisville KY Metro area
4,824 posts, read 12,490,246 times
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Once again, the value of an Oldham County education has presented itself to the testing courts. The district as a whole has proven its worth through scores of the standardized CATS test given throughout the state. While three schools did not reach the goals set, even those three schools are outstanding considering the statewide results.

All three Oldham County High Schools were in the top 15 statewide with only 4 JCPS schools appearing there. The top two schools statewide were JCPS, however, those two schools are essentially "invitation only." It should also be noted that 6 of the bottom 10 high schools in the state are Jefferson County schools.

I know there will be those who will argue that I am not looking at all the stats and I will agree, I am not looking at all the stats, but the facts are, live in Jefferson County and roll the dice if your child gets into one of the top schools, or live in Oldham and your child will be in a top school with top students leading the way.

I sent two boys to parochial schools in Jefferson County, and my daughter went to one of those bottom 10 schools. sigh.......
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Old 09-10-2008, 05:04 PM
 
39 posts, read 100,738 times
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Could you link to the source of your data? I'm a new parent, school systems and such are becoming of more importance to me than they have been in the past. What I find very comforting about living in Louisville, however, is the availability of private schools if I'm not satisfied with the public education system.

Criticize that position if you want, but I'm comforted that I have choices on where to send my child to school if I want to. I attended St. Xavier HS in Cincinnati and for the longest time thought that I wouldn't want my own son to attend school anywhere else my experience there was so great. I've backed off from that position since (and much prefer living here to the 'Nati!) but private schools offer an incredible education and school experience as well.
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Old 09-10-2008, 07:42 PM
 
Location: Louisville KY Metro area
4,824 posts, read 12,490,246 times
Reputation: 2112
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamZissou View Post
Could you link to the source of your data? I'm a new parent, school systems and such are becoming of more importance to me than they have been in the past. What I find very comforting about living in Louisville, however, is the availability of private schools if I'm not satisfied with the public education system.

Criticize that position if you want, but I'm comforted that I have choices on where to send my child to school if I want to. I attended St. Xavier HS in Cincinnati and for the longest time thought that I wouldn't want my own son to attend school anywhere else my experience there was so great. I've backed off from that position since (and much prefer living here to the 'Nati!) but private schools offer an incredible education and school experience as well.
I have no reason to be critical of your choice of schools. Actually, I applaud you. You have the means for sending your child/ren to private/parochial schools.

My data is nearly everywhere, but look at Courier-Journal.com.
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Old 09-11-2008, 04:24 PM
 
39 posts, read 100,738 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomocox View Post
I have no reason to be critical of your choice of schools. Actually, I applaud you. You have the means for sending your child/ren to private/parochial schools.

My data is nearly everywhere, but look at Courier-Journal.com.
I never said I had the means, just that it's nice to have that option. I would love to be able to educate my child through the best schools in JCPS but the option is readily available to go to a private school if/when the need arises. Real options, financial and otherwise, carry value and that's part of the attraction of living in Louisville.
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Old 09-11-2008, 08:04 PM
 
Location: Louisville KY Metro area
4,824 posts, read 12,490,246 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamZissou View Post
I never said I had the means, just that it's nice to have that option. I would love to be able to educate my child through the best schools in JCPS but the option is readily available to go to a private school if/when the need arises. Real options, financial and otherwise, carry value and that's part of the attraction of living in Louisville.
If you don't have $7-9,000 per year per child, you will not have the choice of a private/parochial school. I don't know who is getting in, or how they are, but the slots to get into Male, Manual, Y-Pass, etc, are terribly rare. A newcomer without "pull" will find very tough going when trying to get their child into one of the best JCPS schools.

A child in Oldham, Clark, or Floyd Counties is pretty much guaranteed to get a chance at the best education those counties have to offer. That makes all the difference in the world to me.
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Old 09-11-2008, 10:00 PM
 
39 posts, read 100,738 times
Reputation: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomocox View Post
If you don't have $7-9,000 per year per child, you will not have the choice of a private/parochial school. I don't know who is getting in, or how they are, but the slots to get into Male, Manual, Y-Pass, etc, are terribly rare. A newcomer without "pull" will find very tough going when trying to get their child into one of the best JCPS schools.

A child in Oldham, Clark, or Floyd Counties is pretty much guaranteed to get a chance at the best education those counties have to offer. That makes all the difference in the world to me.
Much like college tuition costs, the sticker price is rarely what a family has to pay for an education. Do I have $7-9,000 sitting around not being used? No, but that's not the final price I'd be responsible for paying either. Before I could adequately determine if I have the means to pay for private schooling I'd have to go through their entire acceptance and financial aid process, etc. It's an option that's available for consideration, that's all, and the viability of it isn't as black and white as you might think.

And again I'd have to ask for a reference to back up your statement regarding "pull" within the system. Maybe that is the way the world works or maybe it's just your opinion- but there are hundreds and hundreds of students that get an outstanding public education in JCPS. Prove to me that I need "pull" to get my kid among those hundreds and I'd have to seriously rethink about where I live when the time comes. But I suspect this issue isn't so black and white either.
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Old 09-14-2008, 12:51 PM
 
81 posts, read 175,793 times
Reputation: 96
I'll let you in on a little secret: Just as Mozart played to babies in their cribs does nothing for their IQs, it doesn't really matter where your kids go to school. From my own observations growing up (comparing my private school peers to my public school peers), private schools add zero value. NONE. I even had teachers in my public high school that switched from private schools because the money was better. And when it comes to drugs and alcohol, temptations that the majority of students succumb to at one point or another, don't think for one minute you can shield your children by surrounding them with rich kids! Class size also makes no difference. Opportunity is the only thing that matters, and by this I mean a good selection of AP classes and a decent variety of extracurricular offerings (for their mental/physical health, NOT so they can get into ivy league schools), and last I checked all but the most rural counties had plenty of both. Btw, if anyone wants to contest any of these claims, direct me to some scholarly research that says otherwise.
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Old 09-14-2008, 01:09 PM
 
Location: Louisville KY Metro area
4,824 posts, read 12,490,246 times
Reputation: 2112
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottrc5391 View Post
I'll let you in on a little secret: Just as Mozart played to babies in their cribs does nothing for their IQs, it doesn't really matter where your kids go to school. From my own observations growing up (comparing my private school peers to my public school peers), private schools add zero value. NONE. I even had teachers in my public high school that switched from private schools because the money was better. And when it comes to drugs and alcohol, temptations that the majority of students succumb to at one point or another, don't think for one minute you can shield your children by surrounding them with rich kids! Class size also makes no difference. Opportunity is the only thing that matters, and by this I mean a good selection of AP classes and a decent variety of extracurricular offerings (for their mental/physical health, NOT so they can get into ivy league schools), and last I checked all but the most rural counties had plenty of both. Btw, if anyone wants to contest any of these claims, direct me to some scholarly research that says otherwise.
I shall turn the page, you should show the research to counter your hypothesis. I am one who will listen to you, but show me the money. If you are correct, then billions of dollars can be saved each and every year, and I surely do love to save money.
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Old 09-14-2008, 03:44 PM
 
81 posts, read 175,793 times
Reputation: 96
It is best for you to do the research and make your own decision, rather than take (potentially) biased information directly from someone like me. Also, even in scholarly research, one must be careful to read the details of how data were collected and analyzed. On the private vs. public issue, from looking through the research articles, I will say that I haven't found any definitive evidence either way. What I did find in favor of private schools (from this article: Neal. D. (1998). What Have We Learned About the Benefits of Private Schooling? Federal Reserve Bank of New York Economic Policy Review, March, 15, 79-86) was that private schools (here in particular, Catholic schools) have the most positive impact on minority students in urban areas, significantly raising their graduation rates. Graduation rates are higher for other students too, but who cares? Why WOULDN'T they be higher if the parents are paying big bucks and pressuring them? As far as academic achievement, for your average middle-class surburb-dwelling middle class American, after controlling for selection bias (parents' background, education, and socio-economic status, etc.) I think the benefits are negligible. Here is a quote:

Coleman and Hoffer (1987), Willms (1985), and Alexander and Pallas (1985) all analyzed the achievement data from the follow-up study, and all three reported similar results. In verbal skills, mathematics, and writing, Catholic school students scored about .1 standard deviation higher than students in public schools with comparable family backgrounds and sophomore achievement. In science and civics, the effects of Catholic schooling on achievement did not appear to be statistically significant.

Completely insignificant to me in the scheme of things. But you do want to leave your child as well of as possible and that is understandable. I assume you will be leaving him/her an inheritance. Ok then. Now, I would concede defeat on this point, BUT, do your discounted cash flow analysis and figure out if the future earnings of your child over his/her lifetime resulting from his/her private school attendance versus his future earnings that would have resulted from free public school yields a positive net present value (the discounted earnings discrepancy of course netted against the tuition you must pay). If not, your money (and your family's) is better spent elsewhere (e.g. invested in a mutual fund).

Another article you may want to check out is: Andrea Tokman Ramos, 2002. "Is Private Education Better? Evidence from Chile," Working Papers Central Bank of Chile 147, Central Bank of Chile.
Didn't read it, but the abstract says neither is better than the other.

Choice of location is a completely different matter of course. But even then, I think the reason many students do better in counties surrounding cities than in urban areas is simply the fact that those students come from better backgrounds. Just my thoughts.
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Old 09-14-2008, 06:55 PM
 
Location: Louisville KY Metro area
4,824 posts, read 12,490,246 times
Reputation: 2112
Default Thank you.... you have earned the right...

Quote:
Originally Posted by scottrc5391 View Post
It is best for you to do the research and make your own decision, rather than take (potentially) biased information directly from someone like me. Also, even in scholarly research, one must be careful to read the details of how data were collected and analyzed. On the private vs. public issue, from looking through the research articles, I will say that I haven't found any definitive evidence either way. What I did find in favor of private schools (from this article: Neal. D. (1998). What Have We Learned About the Benefits of Private Schooling? Federal Reserve Bank of New York Economic Policy Review, March, 15, 79-86) was that private schools (here in particular, Catholic schools) have the most positive impact on minority students in urban areas, significantly raising their graduation rates. Graduation rates are higher for other students too, but who cares? Why WOULDN'T they be higher if the parents are paying big bucks and pressuring them? As far as academic achievement, for your average middle-class surburb-dwelling middle class American, after controlling for selection bias (parents' background, education, and socio-economic status, etc.) I think the benefits are negligible. Here is a quote:

Coleman and Hoffer (1987), Willms (1985), and Alexander and Pallas (1985) all analyzed the achievement data from the follow-up study, and all three reported similar results. In verbal skills, mathematics, and writing, Catholic school students scored about .1 standard deviation higher than students in public schools with comparable family backgrounds and sophomore achievement. In science and civics, the effects of Catholic schooling on achievement did not appear to be statistically significant.

Completely insignificant to me in the scheme of things. But you do want to leave your child as well of as possible and that is understandable. I assume you will be leaving him/her an inheritance. Ok then. Now, I would concede defeat on this point, BUT, do your discounted cash flow analysis and figure out if the future earnings of your child over his/her lifetime resulting from his/her private school attendance versus his future earnings that would have resulted from free public school yields a positive net present value (the discounted earnings discrepancy of course netted against the tuition you must pay). If not, your money (and your family's) is better spent elsewhere (e.g. invested in a mutual fund).

Another article you may want to check out is: Andrea Tokman Ramos, 2002. "Is Private Education Better? Evidence from Chile," Working Papers Central Bank of Chile 147, Central Bank of Chile.
Didn't read it, but the abstract says neither is better than the other.

Choice of location is a completely different matter of course. But even then, I think the reason many students do better in counties surrounding cities than in urban areas is simply the fact that those students come from better backgrounds. Just my thoughts.
Thank you... you have earned the right to be considered a creditable person on this site. I mean that sincerely and with the deepest of respect. Unlike so many young extremists, you came to the table with backup. Yes, I was a bit leary of your initial post, and while I would suggest the jury is still out, you certainly have my attention.

I have said for years that a truly competitive public school system would add so much to the true quality of our systems. My difference is that I am only hypothesizing while you had gone beyond the hypothesis stage.
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