ok new poll with more options about Louisville (Lexington, Frankfort: appointed, transplants)

[Louisvilleslugger]

Even in terms of Jim Crow, Louisville (and Kentucky) was mixed - certainly not Minnesota, but sure as hell not Alabama, either. I am black and have grandparents who grew up in the area - and know blacks who lived through the horros of Jim Crow in the Deep South - so I know what I'm talking about. This was especially true in the case of suffrage, a most fundamental right that was generally not denied to blacks in Kentucky, as it was in nearly every other non-border state of the South.

True Louisville did have a few abnormalities from the South in terms of racial views such as it had more blacks on the police force than any other Southern city, But it was none the less regaurded as a Southern city in these terms during this time in History. This was a major factor in why Louisville and Kentucky had overall losses in their black populations like the rest of the South during the first Great Migrations. Again Louisville attempted to pass regulations resticting blacks to certain neighborhoods, This was only done in Southern cities at this time.

I'am also black and the myth that Kentucky was some safe haven for blacks in the South is crap. Alot of the Older Members of my family are form Columbia, Kentucky and they can't even bring themselves to talk about the way they were treated back then. Here is a map of number of lynchings by each Southern state. kentucky had more lychings than Virginia, and Both Carolina. however it couldn't hold a candle to the Deep South and I say so gladly.

To quote a few passages from Louis C. Kesselman's scholarly article "Negro Voting in a Border Community: Louisville, Kentucky" published many years ago (1957 in fact) in the Journal of Negro Education: "The Southern system of suffrage barriers is virtually unknown in the Border states...Louisville Negroes have enjoyed freedom to vote and participate in party politics since 1870. The Midwestern influence upon this city has been demonstrated by its success in desegregating its university and private colleges, public and parochial schools, public libraries, parks, swimming pools, and golf courses without incident..." Remember, Missouri, Maryland, etc. also had at least some form of legal or de facto segregation up until the Civil Rights movement - yes, Kentucky was more Southern and thus more stringent in its enforcement, but it is a flat out lie to equate this state's treatment of blacks to states such as Georgia and Alabama in order to try make some kind of a point. Both older blacks raised in Kentucky and those raised under the oppressive hell of unrelenting Jim Crow in the Deep South would resent that, and I know it from personal conversations.

BBC's Kentucky Minstrels - This popular radio show was a blackface minstrel series produced by Harry S. Pepper and broadcast by the British Broadcast Corporation (BBC) from 1933-1950. The show was an exaggerated depiction of African Americans in the "good ole days" of plantation life in the U. S. South (Kentucky), accentuated with the use of stereotyped racist and sexist humor. The main character acts were played for many years by three African Americans who had left the United States for the entertainment business in England: Isaac "Ike" F. Hatch (c. 1891-1961), Harry Scott (1879-1947), and Eddie Whaley (1886-1961). Hatch was a trained vocalist and songwriter who had been a member of the W. C. Handy Orchestra. He moved to England in 1925. Scott and Whaley had worked together as a comic act touring the United States; they went to England in 1909
World-Wide Web Resources - Notable Kentucky African Americans

South Before the War (1891) - This Louisville, KY, production was the first of three set in the South. Produced by whites, the play featured a company of both black and white players. John Whallen and Herman Wallum (alias Harry or Henry Martell), who took the production to New York City, managed the show. For more see A History of African American Theatre by E. Hill and The South Before the War Company Papers at Yale University.

Hawkins, William L. - 1895-1990. Hawkins was born on a farm near Lexington, KY. His maternal grandmother, Mary Scudder, raised him. As a young man, he was a trapper and a horse trainer, but when his girlfriend became pregnant, he was sent to live in Ohio. He began to paint when he was 80 years old; his materials came from junk piles and throwaway material at construction sites. Hawkins also collected photographs that were used in his work. One of his signature techniques was to paint a frame around his work that included his name and the place and date of his birth. For more see Souls Grown Deep: African American vernacular art of the South, vol. 1, by P. Arnett and W. Arnett.

Foreign Labor - At the close of the Civil War, Kentucky and other southern states were faced with a labor shortage. The slaves were free and labor stabilization was an ongoing issue. Plantation owners across the South led the movement to bring in foreign labor, claiming it was necessary because paying wages for Negro labor had made the Negro prone to laziness and unreliability. Foreign laborers were sought from the North, Europe, and China. Approximately 3,500 persons, including a small contingency of Chinese immigrants, came to Kentucky, most settling in Louisville. It was not nearly enough to address the labor shortage, however. For more information see A History of Kentucky by T. D. Clark; and R. T. Birthoff, "Southern Attitudes Toward Immigration, 1865-1914," The Journal of Southern History, vol. 17 (3), Aug. 1951, pp. 328-360.

A History of Blacks in Kentucky. Volume I: From Slavery to Segregation, 1760-1891. by Marion B. Lucas A History of Blacks in Kentucky. Volume II: In Pursuit of Equality, 1890-1980. by George C. Wright Review author[s]: Broadus B. Jackson The Journal of Southern History, Vol. 60, No. 2 (May, 1994), pp. 369-371

Whoa. You just completely ignored and marginalized the fact that both Louisville and Kansas City - both situated in border states - have something major in common there. Why? Because Kansas City is a quintessential Midwestern city and yet, religiously, it's profile is VERY similar to Louisville's. From the ARDA, the numbers are:

Jefferson, KY - 156,949 Catholics, compared to 108,354 Southern Baptists (a ratio of roughly 1.45 Catholics for every SBC member)

Jackson, MO - 101,207 Catholics, compared to 75,521 Southern Baptists (a ratio of roughly 1.34 Catholics for every SBC member)

You forget one thing though the city proper of Kansas city extends across four counties Jackson, Clay, Platte, and Cass county (I know it's wierd)

Giving it a population of over 444,965. Making it's Catholic population around 138,528 and it's Baptist population of 122,759

So, per capita, the chief county of Louisville's MSA is MORE heavily Catholic than the chief county in Kansas City's MSA. Therefore, by your logic, Kansas City must be boiling over with Southern culture.

Actually no Kansas city has more Catholics per capita than Louisville, you just forgot or sisn't know to add the rest of the city proper into account.

It is hardly a coincidence that these two cities in border states share this characteristic. It also shows that major Midwestern cities can have a substantial Baptist component, though I'll be the first to admit that these is a phenomenon of the Lower Midwest only.

Although the Baptist population in Missouri has been recongnized in as a Southern trait. I gaurantee you will find this similarity in no other Midwestern city. This is apparent just by glimpsing at the map i posted, St. Louis nor even it's surrounding counties are Baptist to any signifigant degree. Again other than a large Missouri city you will find this trait in no found no where in the Midwest.

These six "exceptions" are all in peripheral locations with regard to the South - Baltimore and Washington, Louisville, San Antonio, Houston, and Miami." Houston was sort of a surprise there, to me at least, but the rest made sense.

Despite that fact Louisville is home to the Southern Baptist Convention and the Southern Gospel Annual Highlight. All of these cities have large Catholic populations so that's no suprise. What is a surprise is that New Orleans was not on the list of low viewer ratings. New Orleans and SOuthern Louisiana are the most heavily Catholic areas in the Nation.

When it is present, Kentucky's accent is most certainly not vintage Southern, and in many parts of Louisville (especially near downtown and on the east side) the accent is rare to sporadic at best. Some neighbors may have it, some may not. Linguists group the South Midland/Lower Midland accent in different ways

Very nice map, But if you notice Louisville and Nashville are still with in the same region according to your dialect map. Nashville dialect is unquestionably Southern and is still grouped, while Cincinnati is according your logic more so a transition zone between the regions

http://www.msu.edu/~preston/LAVIS.pdf Check out pages 7-9 specifically. Anybody from Louisville KNOWS that there are plenty, plenty of us who do not have a Southern accent, or traces of it. I'm not saying that's a good thing or bad, but it is a fact. And it's not due to immigration either, as Louisville is not booming like Atlanta or Charlotte. We are not drawing in outside citizens to water down the accent, as is happening in Sunbelt cities further South.

These maps show different

And lastly, a note on climate. Technically, Louisville is located in the transition area between the humid continental (typically Midwestern) and humid subtropical (typically Southern) climate zones, but it is often included in the former.

According to Wikipedia

"Louisville is located on the northern limit of the humid subtropical climate. Summers are typically hot and humid with mildly warm evenings."

Louisville with 16.2 inches compared to Cinci with 14.2 inches. Very Southern, ha. Hardiness lists, relating to plant environments, are important to consider also, and you'll notice that in this important ecological measure, Louisville is grouped in with lower Midwestern area - lower Kansas, Missouri, Illinois, etc. -

Well Louisville average 16. inches compared to Indianapolis's 23 in, St.Louis's 19.6, Columus, 28 in /Nashville's 10, Richmond's 13.8 in, Knoxville's, 11.5, Norfolk's 7. http://www.factmonster.com/ipka/A0762183.html

And on a last somewhat "sentimental" note - that world famous Southern magnolia, one of the South's most famous and iconic plants? Not in Kentucky -

You know that's lie, just off of 7th street the Government center decorates it's landscape with countless magnolia trees. Not to mention Old Louisville. If you don't want to take my word for it here's a passage below.

"Spring is Kentucky Derby season in Louisville. Heralded by blooming azaleas and magnolia trees, the Derby at Churchill Downs is an annual excuse to drink mint juleps and don diaphanous hats. The race since its inception has drawn all classes, thrilled at the prospect of those two minutes on the first Saturday in May, when 3-year-old Thoroughbreds run the race of their lives.

Even in the limelight of Derby season, Louisville wears her grace lightly, like a Southern belle who calls her best dress ''this old thing.'' When a stranger asks at a local historic house about a Kentucky sideboard that rivals a Chippendale, or marvels at the orange-red yolk of a local egg, Louisvillians don't really know what to make of the fuss."

WHAT'S DOING IN; Louisville - New York Times

PLANTS Profile for Magnolia grandiflora (southern magnolia) | USDA PLANTS

Kentucky has fire ants

So yes, I can understand how some Louisvillians may travel to Milwaukee and feel out of place. But many of us also feel FAR more out of place when in Mobile, AL or Beaumont, TX.

I've shown different

We drink "soda" or "pop", we speak with a plain accent, we identify as Northerners or Midwesterners, not Southerners, but we think it's GREAT to live in a city that can

according this Louisville pronouces it coke along with the rest of the South.

Really though, I couldn't disagree more strongly (but respectfully) with claims that Louisville is merely a Catholicized "Diet Nashville" or something. I've never seen the city in that light, and I never will. It often comes up in professional articles - one of my favorite examples is at

The problem that alot of people have in this debate, is that they only see Southern cities in one stereotypical Light. Sure Nashville is Southern, But so is the French/Cajun Culture of New Orleans and Southern Louisiana, Or the mildly Hispanic Culture of Houston and or Dallas. Look how dot com places like Richmond and Hampton Roads area Virginia have become. Look at Jacksonville. The South is a Unique place and to say that Louisville can't be Southern because it had early an influx of German Catholics during the Civil War Era is ridiculous in my book. This cultural map backs my statement



To end it there is just too much evidence in this city's History, culture, architecture, and dialect pointing Southern for anyone to insist that it's not. While there are certain abnormalities that the city has that most of the South doesn't they certainly don't outweigh the commonalities that the city does have with the South, which is seems to have more with than any other region.

[red3chelle]

Hello, I'm new to this web-site and can't figure out how to create a new post. Since you are obviously very informed about Louisville and generating a lot of response I thought I'd post here :-)

I'm currently in Georgia but am relocating to Louisville. I prefer 30 minutes or less commute to a zip 40219. I have elementary and Jr. High school age children and want a very good school for them in a low crime, med. income neighborhood. Can anyone give me any suggestions? I'd really appreciate any help I can get! Thanks!

[Louisvilleslugger]

Originally Posted by red3chelle

Hello, I'm new to this web-site and can't figure out how to create a new post. Since you are obviously very informed about Louisville and generating a lot of response I thought I'd post here :-)

I'm currently in Georgia but am relocating to Louisville. I prefer 30 minutes or less commute to a zip 40219. I have elementary and Jr. High school age children and want a very good school for them in a low crime, med. income neighborhood. Can anyone give me any suggestions? I'd really appreciate any help I can get! Thanks!

Well Welcome to Louisville

Moore is an excellent traditional Middle and High school within that area. I believe that Moore and a host of other JCPS schools are having some sort of program abling each and every student to have labtops (to take home) until the school year ends. They might have canceled it, So just double check on the JCPS website. Conveniently an elementary school (Smyrna) is on the same property as the Middle/High school.

[Louisvilleslugger]

Here is the most recent dialect map, based off of the PBS special do you speak American, just another case in which Louisville's dialect is grouped in with the South.

[missymomof3]

Where did you get the data on SW Jefferson County? I can't find it and would be interested to learn more.

[Louisvilleslugger]

With the slow pace of this poll can someone switch it to the general U.S. or can I create another poll on those forums?

[lovintexas]

Louisville--SOUTHERN? That's a crock! That's like saying Detroit is in Texas, or Miami is in Oregon. It just doesn't make sense. Many of the kids from Louisville that leave the state for college, where do they go? Miami of Ohio, Cincinnati, Illinois, Notre Dame, Indiana, etc. They go north; Louisville is more of a northern/midwestern city that has basically lost all traces of its Southern undertones. Mint juleps don't exist in Louisville. It's SO hard to find real sweet tea, grits, and country ham in restaurants. There is only one Southern-style restaurant in Louisville. Southern accents and, for the most part, Southern hospitality doesn't exist in Louisville. Sure, there are nice people, but the women are much more independent and don't want a man to even hold a door open for them (from personal experience.) Most people don't even say "please" or "thank you." (I have found more "Southern" hospitality in Atlanta than Louisville.)

I'm not trashing Louisville. In fact, I'd rather live in Louisville than any other area of the state (Hardin, Oldham, Jefferson, Bullitt, or Shelby Counties.) But, keep in mind, if you're looking for good "Southern" living, it can't be found there. As a previous poster stated, a Louisvillian might feel a little out of place in Milwaukee; that same Louisvillian will REALLY feel out of place in Mobile. In fact, once you get south of I-40, Kentucky is considered a "yankee" state and Louisville a "yankee" city. That's just the way it is.

[missymomof3]

Originally Posted by lovintexas

Louisville--SOUTHERN? That's a crock! That's like saying Detroit is in Texas, or Miami is in Oregon. It just doesn't make sense. Many of the kids from Louisville that leave the state for college, where do they go? Miami of Ohio, Cincinnati, Illinois, Notre Dame, Indiana, etc. They go north; Louisville is more of a northern/midwestern city that has basically lost all traces of its Southern undertones. Mint juleps don't exist in Louisville. It's SO hard to find real sweet tea, grits, and country ham in restaurants. There is only one Southern-style restaurant in Louisville. Southern accents and, for the most part, Southern hospitality doesn't exist in Louisville. Sure, there are nice people, but the women are much more independent and don't want a man to even hold a door open for them (from personal experience.) Most people don't even say "please" or "thank you." (I have found more "Southern" hospitality in Atlanta than Louisville.)

I'm not trashing Louisville. In fact, I'd rather live in Louisville than any other area of the state (Hardin, Oldham, Jefferson, Bullitt, or Shelby Counties.) But, keep in mind, if you're looking for good "Southern" living, it can't be found there. As a previous poster stated, a Louisvillian might feel a little out of place in Milwaukee; that same Louisvillian will REALLY feel out of place in Mobile. In fact, once you get south of I-40, Kentucky is considered a "yankee" state and Louisville a "yankee" city. That's just the way it is.

I don't know what part of Louisville you went to but it's not that way around here. I am in the SW part of Jefferson County and you can get grits, country ham and sweet tea in just about every restaurant. Please and thank you are not that uncommon and as far as I can tell women still enjoy doors opened for them. I am sorry you had a not so good experience but the entire city is not the same.

[missymomof3]

oh, and as far as accents go, I have heard plenty of em here in my part. as a matter of fact when they interviewed some Texans on the news, the accents I heard resembled some I hear around here.

[missymomof3]

Dang it I need to keep all my thoughts together... sorry. As far as only one Southern style restaurant, that isn't true either. We have Jesse's, Granny's Apron, Jerry's (which is a mix) and Ryan's is a buffet that always has Southern food on it such as fried okra, greens, fried chicken and all of the restaurants except some of the chains that I have been to have sweet tea.