moving to Madison,Wi from Jacksonville,Fl (Milwaukee, Fitchburg: apartment complexes, to rent)

[thehatchfamily]

Hey everyone,
I was hoping someone can give me some information regarding our potential move to Madison.
My husband is in the Military and we are being transferred. Our two choices are Madison and Pittsburgh,Pa. We are leaning toward Madison because it seems to be a very family orientated city.
I have heard though that the Madison community isn't very fond of the military so, of course that is one of my concerns and I also read on one of the other blogs the there was a 2 dog limit in some areas?
We also have a 15 year old boy that has been in the same place all of his life so, this is very hard move for him especially being in high school.
If anyone could tell me if those rumors are true and if there is anything specific I could get my teenager excited about regarding the teenage community.
Oh yes and of course, the name of the best rated public schools

[Drover]

I have lived in both Madison and Pittsburgh. I liked them both quite a bit and under the right circumstances I wouldn't mind returning to either. It's hard to determine which one is more family-friendly. Pittsburgh's family-friendliness comes from its deep roots; you'll often find several generations of a single family there. People know each other because they've lived on the same block together for decades; neighbors really look out for each other in Pittsburgh. Madison has a lot more population turnover so its roots aren't as deep, but Madison area schools are consistently better than Pittsburgh area schools. This is especially true of the city-proper school districts. There are fine school districts in many of Pittsburgh's suburbs, but there are some real duds too so you have to look carefully to find out which is which. In the Madison area the task is made easier by almost uniformly good schools. This has drawn a lot of young families into the area, which accounts for much of Madison's family-oriented nature.

There is less animosity toward military in Pittsburgh, though it has its share of sanctimonious college brats who believe the military is an unconditional evil. However, the student-to-townie ratio in Pittsburgh is lower than in Madison; and the Pittsburgh townies, many of whom inherited the region's working-class blue-collar traditions, are less apt to hold the same sympathies as the students than the townies are in Madison, which is more uniformly liberal.

The feel of each city is very different. Pittsburgh is an old city with lots of older homes and buildings --many from the turn of the century or older -- and a much more "vintage" feel. It's a little bit more "well-worn" with tattered edges. The infrastructure shows its age. Madison by comparison is a newer, shinier place with more homes built after WWII than before. Madison has a much more contemporary suburban feel once you leave the downtown core. It's like the difference between a pair of worn but comfortable old sneakers and a brand new shiny pair: they both have their own appeal in their own way. Pittsburgh has a lot more character and soul; Madison does not have nearly as much outright decay to contend with.

Pittsburgh has its standard urban crime issues. Some pockets within the city suck, some are fine. Same goes with the suburbs: some are fine, some were stung hard by the collapse of the steel industry and have never recovered, particicularly those situated along the Monongehela River. Madison on the other hand has an unbelievably low crime rate for a city of its size; and that goes not just for the suburbs but the city proper as well.

Pittsburgh has a more metropolitan feel. Its cultural institutions are world-class thanks to lots of well-heeled benefactors who have inherited old-money wealth generated during Pittsburgh's industrial heyday. It has a vital Cultural District downtown and plenty of mom-and-pop galleries around the region. Madison has a more funky/indie vibe, though pockets of similar funkiness can be found here and there in Pittsburgh.

I don't know what to tell you about your 15-year-old though. It sucks being dragged away from people you've been friends with for 10 years -- especially when those 10 years comprise almost the entire portion of your life that you can remember. I don't know that being moved to the most exciting place on Earth can make up for the shock of that. I don't see that he'll have much trouble adjusting in either place.

Hope the rest is helpful though.

[MidwesternBookWorm]

Drover has a better perspective on comparisons between Pittsburgh and Madison than I would, as I've never been to Pittsburgh, but I can offer a few comments about Madison, and about the fun of uprooting a teenager for a cross-country move.

We moved back to the Midwest, specifically Madison, in 1999, after spending 18 years in the Rio Grande Valley of Texas. Both of our children were born in Texas, and they were 14 and 16 when we moved. I don't think there's anything you can do that will make it easy for your son, but there are things you can do that will make it less hard, if that makes sense.

One thing we did was to come up here on a job-hunting visit with all the family, rather than just the adults. During that visit, I arranged a tour of the high school that we were most interested in, and our two teens and I spent about 2 or 3 hours there one afternoon. One of the counselors took us all over the school, introduced us to several teachers, talked to our kids about their interests, the classes that they had taken, how the credits would transfer, and what courses they might be interested in. In the middle of the conversation, the school principal came in to meet us, having heard from someone in the office that a couple of prospective students were visiting; my kids were simply astounded, since students in their district in Texas never, ever saw the principal unless they were about to get expelled. We also took the time while we were there to attend a concert at the school (since one of my kids was interested in music), and talked with several students before and after the concert.

Once we moved and the kids actually started school, we were contacted several times by the school psychologists, who asked how our offspring were assimilating to the new environment. They invested a fair bit of effort in helping the kids find a niche, and while I know it wasn't easy for either of them, I think that they were ultimately more successful than they'd have been if we just dropped them off that first day and said "sink or swim".

During the same job-hunting visit, and in several visits prior to that (we chose Madison very intentionally), we took the family around to as many of the local attractions as we could, to try to get a sense of what makes the city tick. We toured the Capitol, the university, drove around the older neighborhoods, tried out restaurants that we had never heard of, and walked the downtown shopping district. It was a good opportunity to get a sense of the community's pulse, and if your plans allow such a visit, I'd strongly recommend that you do the same.

As to your specific questions, I'll try to answer as much as I can.

Madison is very definitely an extremely liberal, pacifist city. At the same time, however, I have never gotten any sense that there is intolerance of military personnel. Madisonians are strongly anti-war, but most seem to try to make a distinction between the policy decisions and the people who have to carry them out. Madison has been home to at least one military base for decades, and I don't really think you'd encounter difficulty. However, I would definitely suggest that you contact some of the local military personnel and their spouses to get their perspectives on that; I'm obviously not in their shoes, so I am not as knowledgable as they'd be.

I'm not sure where you saw a two-dog limit; maybe in some apartment complexes? Not many apartments accept dogs at all, and those that do usually limit size and/or number. Our next-door neighbor has 5 greyhounds (along with 3 cats), so there certainly isn't a city-wide limit. It's possible that certain neighborhoods may have limits, but between you and me, I'm betting that they'd be the extremely high-end kind, the ones where you not only pay for the house but also have to pay dues to the local association for the privilege of living there. It might also be true of some condominiums.

RE: high schools, I don't think you can go wrong at any of them, and you can find people who have something good to say about each of them. My spouse and I chose to place our kids in the high school with the greatest diversity (both ethnic and economic), and both they and we agree that they got an excellent education there. We live on the East side of Madison, and they went to East High. West High, Memorial High and La Follette High are all very good, too, though, and each has its own unique personality. I'd recommend that you check out the schools' websites to get an idea of what they're like; we did that, and it helped a lot.

I would make one comment about Drover's point about the fine arts community in Madison. I think perhaps it may have been a while since Drover lived here, because the arts community has changed a LOT from the description s/he (sorry, I don't know which you are) provides.

In 1998, a local philanthropist by the name of Jerry Frautschi announced that he was giving the city $50 million to build a fine arts center. The design phase started, and it grew into a complex that covers an entire city block downtown on State Street. The cost grew, too, and each time the estimate went up, Mr. Frautschi increased his gift. The final price tag was $205 million, and it was ALL paid for by one man.

The Overture Center for the Arts opened in 2004, and it is an unbelievable place: there are at least four performance venues, as well as multiple rehearsal spaces, the Madison Museum of Contemporary Art is there, there are several other smaller galleries, and it is a simply gorgeous building. The Madison Symphony, Wisconsin Chamber Orchestra, Madison Repertory Theater, Madison Ballet, Madison Opera, Madison Family Theater and several dance companies all call Overture home, and touring performers including the Chicago Symphony, Art Garfunkel, Loreena McKennitt, Prairie Home Companion, Riverdance, and a host of others have all appeared there.

In addition to the Overture Center, there are multiple other performance venues for live music and theater, several museums, and a very lively year-round arts schedule. Whether you like classical music, popular, rock, folk, jazz, blues, or whatever, you'll find performers and concerts in Madison that appeal to you.

Madison certainly has a sort of funky/indie side to its arts scene, but there's a lot more to it these days than that.

Good luck to you, and to your teen, in your move, Hatch Family! I hope to see you at the Farmers' Market on the Capitol Square, or at Concerts on the Square, or wandering State Street soon. Welcome to Madison!

[Drover]

I am well aware of the Overture Center. And the cultural arts scene there is still nothing compared to Pittsburgh, which has an entire cultural arts district and a whole network of Carnegie museums, not just one building. When I say "world-class" I mean it competes with major metropolitan cultural arts scenes. Not to take anything away from Madison's scene or the Overture Center, but Pittsburgh majorly outguns Madison on the cultural arts front.

[Resident of Madison]

Have lived in Madison since 1964. Raised 2 kids here and served 22 years as a counselor in Madison West High School. Moving here was the best decision we ever made. Both our children went to public schools here and had no problems in adjusting to classes at the University of Wisconsin later.

The teachers in Madison schools have to teach at a high level because most of their students are endowed with all the advantages you can imagine. When I first came here as a counselor, I felt like I was doing social work for millionaires. One year our school had 17 National Merit Scholors. They still have many, but not that many.

The UW Band and Athletic teams are supremely exciting, which should appeal to a 15 year old. After every football game, win or lose, the students celebrate for twenty minutes or more dancing to music by the UW Band.
They changed the lyrics of the Budwiser song to "When you say Wisconsin, You've said it all!". They had to outlaw it during the game because the thousands of people dancing in the stands was making the upper deck of the stadium sway. We've had national championships recently in both men's and womens hockey and our basketball and football teams have come close to national titles. The football team has recently been in many bowl games and won all of them

I was laisson counselor to the military during the Vietnam War and we did have military posters vandalized then and the protest movement was very strong back in that era. It cooled very quickly when a bomb went off and killed a research worker here. There might still be some anti military folks around, but they seem to be directing their antipathy toward the president rather than the military.

Being in the military you probably want to rent and I favor the West Side. I would avoid the area south of the beltline as it seems to have more crime than anywhere else. Fitchburg is OK.


Good Luck with your move,

Dick Layman

[td5757]

madison is great the east side is the best its more blue coller than the west side of town and who told u we dont like military now thats just silly and madison has no 2 dog law i think its 5 or more but if they dont know well they wont know and they dont really care and we have 4 high schools here east has around 1800 kids there or more so i think he can find some good friends

[td5757]

i dont think that drover knows what they are talking about if pitt was better than madison than why are people moving out of pitt in to mad and we do have a arts dis its called state steet its just not as big as pitt its not better its just differnt thats all

[Drover]

Uhm, when did I say Pitt was better than Madison? Even if I had, why am I not allowed to express that opinion without being patronized?

[Steve-o]

Originally Posted by td5757

i dont think that drover knows what they are talking about if pitt was better than madison than why are people moving out of pitt in to mad and we do have a arts dis its called state steet its just not as big as pitt its not better its just differnt thats all

Can someone translate this for me?

[Katiana]

OK, just who you have been waiting for, Pittsburgh! FYI, I have a rep in Pittsburgh as sort of a "Debbie Downer" b/c I happen to speak my mind. I grew up in the Pittsburgh area a number of moons ago. I have never lived in Madison, have only been there a few times. I have a lot of extended family in Wisconsin and have spent a lot of time in Milwaukee and up north in Butternut.

What Drover said about the Mon valley is also true of the Beaver Valley, my old stomping grounds. We were just there a few weeks ago and it looks worse than ever. Beaver Falls looks like a ghost town with people.

Drover is correct in everything he said about Pittsburgh. However, he left a few things out. Pittsburgh is a shrinking city. In its heyday, its population was ~ 800,000 people, now it is down to just a little over 300,000 and speculation is that in the next census it will go under 300,000. Not only is the city shrinking, so is the metro area (they call it Greater Pittsburgh). The metro population is ~ 2.1 million right now; in 1970 it was 2.7 million. (That is the oldest number I could find for metro pop.) Greater Pitt lost more people from 2000-2007 than any city other than New Orleans. It is one of only a few metro areas to have actually lost total population. Why have people left? Jobs, primarily. The steel industry crashed in the early 1980s, and the city has yet to completely recover. I just read an article recently in my hometown newspaper that there are about half the high school students in Beaver County now than there were 36 yrs ago (1971). Beaver County Times Allegheny Times - Schools ready to give choice program a shot (broken link)
Yes, Pittsburgh has a fab arts scene. Its facilities were designed for a much larger population.

Pittsburgh's family-friendliness comes from its deep roots; you'll often find several generations of a single family there. People know each other because they've lived on the same block together for decades; Drover

As you can imagine, this can be both good and bad. I have talked to people who have moved there and said they couldn't quite break in to the cliques there, then others say they have had no such problem. Some people say it's the newcomers' fault. I disagree. I know how tight-knit it can be there. I think it's sometimes just a matter of luck ie who your neighbors are, etc. Surely, if you are willing to volunteer in school, church, wherever, you will be accepted.

If you search the Pittsburgh forums you will find much mention of people living and dying in the same neighborhood, people who haven't gotten out much and seen much of the world outside of Pittsburgh, etc. While true everywhere, it's even more true there. One thing about midwesterners is that they like to travel.

I would not want to have to move a 15 yr old, though I know those who have. My parents moved when my brother was in high school and the principal at his new school told my mom a cute little story: two men were sitting on a park bench. One said he was new to town and asked what the people were like. The other asked what the people were like in his old town. "Friendly, wonderful", etc, etc. was the reply. The guy said, "that's the kind of people you'll find here". Then another man came along and said he was new and asked the same question and got the same question back. "Awful people, blah, blah". "That's the kind of people you'll find here", the other man said. Corny, but certainly true. Good luck with your decison and your move.