Madison or Omaha? (Milwaukee, Washington: neighborhood, school districts, university)

[Milwaukee Ronnie]

Originally Posted by Drover

(Oddly enough, my favorite place while in town is also the Great Dane, and is often the main reason for my visit.)

I've eaten and drank in Brewpubs all across this great land, and I've never been to one as good as the Great Dane. That place is on another level.

[MWKlover]

Take Madison!

[Drover]

Originally Posted by Milwaukee Ronnie

I've eaten and drank in Brewpubs all across this great land, and I've never been to one as good as the Great Dane. That place is on another level.

That and they have arguably the best biergarten in all the midwest. (Too bad you can only use it 5 months out of the year...)

[Wellstone]

Originally Posted by Milwaukee Ronnie

I never said my opinions of Madison are "Milwaukee" opinions or reflecting of most Milwaukeeans opinions. Honestly, most of us don't really have an opinion of Madison, because most of us really don't know much about it outside of its status as the state capital and site of the state's flagship university. Your typical Milwaukeean can tell all about their favorite places in Chicago and the neighborhoods they usually hang out in down there. Ask your typical Milwaukeean what their favorite place to go in Madison is ... and you'll usually draw a blank.

My opinions of Madison are based on my own experiences living there for six years from 1997 to 2003. I have family there so I am in Madison or the surrounding area at least once every few months. So I know Wisconsin's capital city far better than most Milwaukeeans. And I do have a favorite place in Madison -- the Great Dane. I also have a bit more than your usual "outsider's" persepective of the town.

When I lived there I was involved in local government at both the city and county level, and had a job in an office on Capitol Square. So I got to know the "real" town, outside of the University. I found Madison to be incredibly provincial. I found it to be run by a political and social elite that, by and large, had their heads firmly implanted in their rectums. In meetings with local officials I was amazed at the lack of substance, wrapped in a psuedo-intellectual air of "we know what's best for you." When I saw Ralph Nader appear on Hardball With Chris Matthews at the Orpheum in 2000, I was embarrassed to be part of a crowd that booed the host for asking tough questions. A lot of the people doing the booing were part of that elite. The people that supposedly "knew better" than everyone else.

i lived in madison for 3 years and my observations when i was there is that people from madison wanted nothing to do with milwaukee and vice versa. they are only an hour apart and most people i know from madison never go to milwaukee. the only reason to go would be to see either the brewers or bucks, and madison people are more loyal to the badgers and don't give a rip about the milwaukee teams. plus we also hate marquette.

it is somewhat of a rivalry that has built up, perhaps it is because madison area continues to grow like gangbusters while milwaukee's population is shrinking.

i'd think deciding between madison and omaha is quite easy. omaha = a racially tense right wing town in nowhereville USA

[KatieBlue]

racially tense???? nowhereville USA????? Have you ever spent much time in Omaha? Just wondering what you base your information on?

[quijote]

i lived in madison for 3 years and my observations when i was there is that people from madison wanted nothing to do with milwaukee and vice versa. they are only an hour apart and most people i know from madison never go to milwaukee.

This rivalry probably resides in a fairly small subgroup of Madisonians and Milwaukeeans. For the most part, Milwaukeeans and Madisonians don't trouble themselves too much about which city is better, etc. Plenty of Madisonians come to Milwaukee for various reasons (State Fair, Summerfest, etc.), and viceversa (Dane Co. Market, etc.).

Milwaukee is very much a Great Lake city, meaning that the commercial/cultural attention of people is directed north and south of city (the Chicago-Milwaukee-Green Bay corridor) and generally eastward (toward other Great Lakes communities).

Madison has never really been a part of the Great Lakes culture; it is more geographically isolated, and as the capital, has seen itself as the commercial and cultural hub for the surrounding area (Spring Green-Baraboo-New Glarus) and for much of the rest of central and south rural Wisconsin.

However, Madison historically has attracted people who don't want to leave the state, yet who look for a very progressive and closed community that doesn't exist in most other parts of rural Wisconsin. Hence the existence in Madison of a bubble-type community of leftist people who ally themselves more with other leftist out-of-state bubbles such as Ithaca, Boulder, etc.

In many ways, the leftist bubble in Madison is very anti-city, yet strives to be very urbanized and urbane. In its historical roots, the leftist bubble in Madison is very pro-rural (think John Muir), yet seems to look down on the not-so-progressive farms types from Wisconsin.

But again, this is just a subset residing within Madison. Most people in Madison and in the surrounding burbs shop at Target and lead fairly conventional lives.

It's true that Madison is growing at a rate faster than Metro Milwaukee is growing. Madison's economy is robust for Wisconsin, but still ranks kind of low nationally. This signals many of the problems that Wisconsin is having in its transition from a manufacturing and farm economy to a more "21st Century" economy. The Madison-Milwaukee rivalry, sometimes reflected in State politics, isn't helping the situation any.

Madison and Dane County have been seeing a population boom-- a lot of people are moving there in order to enjoy the lifestyles of a small city or its semi-rural suburbs. Unfortunately, this trend threatens to destroy much of what has made Madison appealing. Farms are being gobbled up by development, and artsy, affordable neighborhoods in the city are being gentrified and made unaffordable for many people. And Madison has been seeing crime, blight, and racial segregation develop at high rates lately.

Milwaukee already has the urban infrastructure for renewed development, but it seems that people would prefer to destroy Madison's character and natural beauty, rather than recycle Milwaukee's blighted neighborhoods.

For people interested in moving to Madison, beware that the city and its surroundings will probably look very different 10 or 20 years from now. Much of what makes Madison an attractive place to move to will change or disappear at current rates of growth. It's likely that places such as Omaha, with more modest growth, will remain more stable over the years.

[Milwaukee Ronnie]

Originally Posted by Wellstone

it is somewhat of a rivalry that has built up, perhaps it is because madison area continues to grow like gangbusters while milwaukee's population is shrinking.

i'd think deciding between madison and omaha is quite easy. omaha = a racially tense right wing town in nowhereville USA

Des Moines is growing faster than Madison. But does that mean Des Moines thinks its set to eclipse a city three times its size? Keep in mind that contrary to the prevailing bubble-mindset of Madison, the suburban Milwaukee collar counties are growing. They are not growing at the same rate as Dane County, to be sure, but since they have more population than Dane County, the same amount of development would register as a lower rate of growth.

In a smaller, largely rural county like Dane, the addition of 20,000 people since 2000 appears to be "gangbusters" growth. But, in reality, the fastest growing counties in Wisconsin are not Dane or Milwaukee's surburban counties. They are Kenosha and St. Croix counties, which are rapidly becoming outlying suburbs to Chicago and the Twin Cities, respectively. And none of this compares to the full one million in population added to suburban Atlanta over the first six years of this decade.

The City of Milwaukee is shrinking. But again, taken in a national context, this is hardly unusual. Pittsburgh, DC, even Chicago -- all of these central cities lose population while their metropolitan areas grow. It's the distinctly American phenomenon known as suburbanization. It effects northern and eastern cities with borders fixed by incorporated suburbs.

You are correct in observing that Madison and Milwaukee inhabit two totally different realms. And that's fine. Quite frankly, Milwaukee does not need Madison to help support our cultural scene, our festivals, our professional sports teams. We have three times your population. Of course all are welcome to come take in a Brewers game, attend a show at the Pabst or Riverside, or see an exhibition at MAM. But if you choose to stay in your own town that's fine. We'll be OK.

You see, Milwaukee is on the smaller end of what is known as a major city. Madison, and the rest of Wisconsin, need Milwaukee. Of the 9 Fortune 500 companies in Wisconsin, 7 are in Milwaukee. One in four jobs in Wisconsin are located in Milwaukee. The technology start ups coming out the UW Madison need capital from Milwaukee and other major cities in order to gain a foothold. When they reach maturity they need to move to a major labor market (ie, not Madison) in order to compete. It's simple economics. Major cities are the engines that fill the government coffers that make towns like Madison possible.

You might not want to have anything to do with us, but you do. You can choose to not visit, but, based on your ignorant, knee jerk comment about Omaha, I don't think I would like you anyway.

[Steve_W]

Originally Posted by KatieBlue

racially tense???? nowhereville USA????? Have you ever spent much time in Omaha? Just wondering what you base your information on?

I think it's quite obvious with her incoherent rambling she has no idea WTF she's talking about. I am glad the citizens of Madison are loyal to the Badgers however, that is definitely a reason someone would choose to relocate there.........yeah that’s a lot of sarcasm.


By the way, Wellstoner, Milwaukee is a city and Madison is a cowtown....uhh i mean town.

Now get back to milking your bull while wearing your cheesehead.

[Wellstone]

Originally Posted by Milwaukee Ronnie

Des Moines is growing faster than Madison. But does that mean Des Moines thinks its set to eclipse a city three times its size? Keep in mind that contrary to the prevailing bubble-mindset of Madison, the suburban Milwaukee collar counties are growing. They are not growing at the same rate as Dane County, to be sure, but since they have more population than Dane County, the same amount of development would register as a lower rate of growth.

In a smaller, largely rural county like Dane, the addition of 20,000 people since 2000 appears to be "gangbusters" growth. But, in reality, the fastest growing counties in Wisconsin are not Dane or Milwaukee's surburban counties. They are Kenosha and St. Croix counties, which are rapidly becoming outlying suburbs to Chicago and the Twin Cities, respectively. And none of this compares to the full one million in population added to suburban Atlanta over the first six years of this decade.

The City of Milwaukee is shrinking. But again, taken in a national context, this is hardly unusual. Pittsburgh, DC, even Chicago -- all of these central cities lose population while their metropolitan areas grow. It's the distinctly American phenomenon known as suburbanization. It effects northern and eastern cities with borders fixed by incorporated suburbs.

You are correct in observing that Madison and Milwaukee inhabit two totally different realms. And that's fine. Quite frankly, Milwaukee does not need Madison to help support our cultural scene, our festivals, our professional sports teams. We have three times your population. Of course all are welcome to come take in a Brewers game, attend a show at the Pabst or Riverside, or see an exhibition at MAM. But if you choose to stay in your own town that's fine. We'll be OK.

You see, Milwaukee is on the smaller end of what is known as a major city. Madison, and the rest of Wisconsin, need Milwaukee. Of the 9 Fortune 500 companies in Wisconsin, 7 are in Milwaukee. One in four jobs in Wisconsin are located in Milwaukee. The technology start ups coming out the UW Madison need capital from Milwaukee and other major cities in order to gain a foothold. When they reach maturity they need to move to a major labor market (ie, not Madison) in order to compete. It's simple economics. Major cities are the engines that fill the government coffers that make towns like Madison possible.

You might not want to have anything to do with us, but you do. You can choose to not visit, but, based on your ignorant, knee jerk comment about Omaha, I don't think I would like you anyway.

problem is most people who graduate from college aren't necessarily working for fortune 500 companies. I would venture to say there are as many college grads from UW leaving the state for places like Chicago, Minneapolis, and all over the country before choosing Milwaukee. There may be Fortune 500 companies there but they are primarily either dying industry, banks, or insurance companies. The latter they can do right in Madison. Dying industry is not where they want to be either, that can be found anywhere.

City of Madison, Wisconsin - Welcome to the Planning & Development Department

face it, milwaukee is a blue collar town and while there are some quality jobs to be had there, it is far from being the pillar of the state.

Milwaukee needs madison as much as madison needs it, because of the lack of quality learning institutions in the milwaukee metro. public schools there suck and the colleges pale in comparison to the UW. you can pay a lot more tuition to go to marquette but you won't get a better education. you could even end up like the school's most well known alum, joesph mccarthy.

as for omaha, Racial tension in Omaha, Nebraska - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

sounds a lot like milwaukee

[quijote]

Originally Posted by Wellstone

problem is most people who graduate from college aren't necessarily working for fortune 500 companies. I would venture to say there are as many college grads from UW leaving the state for places like Chicago, Minneapolis, and all over the country before choosing Milwaukee. There may be Fortune 500 companies there but they are primarily either dying industry, banks, or insurance companies. The latter they can do right in Madison. Dying industry is not where they want to be either, that can be found anywhere.

Wisconsin is a "brain-drain" state compared to national averages, and this applies to Milwaukee, Madison, and other cities in Wisconsin. Something like 20% of all state college grads in the 22-29 year-old cohort leave the state for jobs and careers. Though many of these people return to Wisconsin at middle age (and Milwaukee is a magnet for these boomerang folks), the 22-29 year-old cohort is considered to be crucial in developing new technologies that could help the state grow. Things won't begin to change until Milwaukee and Madison collaborate more effectively to change the climate for college grads. Until then, "divided we fall."

City of Madison, Wisconsin - Welcome to the Planning & Development Department

face it, milwaukee is a blue collar town and while there are some quality jobs to be had there, it is far from being the pillar of the state.

Actually, like most cities everywhere in the U.S., Milwaukee's economy lies largely in the ever-growing "service" industry. Milwaukee does have a high percentage of blue-collar jobs, however, relative to the state average. But the "blue collar" thing is more of a cultural legacy rather than a central economic reality. Also, like it or not, Milwaukee's finance, accounting, and legal firms are unparalleled in the state.

In terms of sheer economic power (aggregate income earned, aggregate disposable income, aggregate tax receipts, etc.) the Milwaukee metro is indeed the pillar of the state. On a per capita basis, these aggregate data dissolve into lower figures compared to metro Madison, but it's aggregate data--and therefore sheer market power--that really power an economic system. If Madison can retain current per capita standards while growing from ~600,000 to ~1,700,000 people strong, then its aggregate power will be larger. But for now, only the Milwaukee metro can claim such power in Wisconsin.

Milwaukee needs madison as much as madison needs it, because of the lack of quality learning institutions in the milwaukee metro. public schools there suck and the colleges pale in comparison to the UW. you can pay a lot more tuition to go to marquette but you won't get a better education. you could even end up like the school's most well known alum, joesph mccarthy.

It's very true that Madison and Milwaukee need each other, and ought to work together a lot better.

It's also true that UW-Madison has all of the advantages of a flagship university, but most of its academic reputation really lies in faculty research and the grad programs. The undergrad program is not considered particularly amazing outside of the state of Wisconsin; it pales in comparison to Berkeley, Virginia, and other public schools, as well as many private schools. Sad to say, but for many people outside of Wisconsin, UW-Madison only means "football" and "party school."

Regardless of opinions on the education at Madison's and Milwaukee's colleges, it's a fact that too many UW-Madison grads wind up leaving the state for jobs and careers. This doesn't help Madison, Milwaukee, or any other city in Wisconsin. It's also a fact, by the way, that UW-Milwaukee grads tend to remain in the state; they don't contribute to brain-drain. In fact, many work at the fine public schools in Madison.

Also, there are many who would claim that an education at Marquette, or UWM, or Alverno, or any number of other colleges, is of equal or higher quality than that available at UW-Madison. And while there's a chance you'll wind up like Senator McCarthy, there's an even greater chance that you won't. How's that for the law of averages?

as for omaha, Racial tension in Omaha, Nebraska - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

sounds a lot like milwaukee

Actually, it sounds like the United States. If Madison has found a way to solve these problems, I'm sure many would like to hear about it. And if Madison continues to grow at current rates, it too will someday join Milwaukee and other significant cities on the list of cities that have had to deal strenuously with classic urban problems. I trust Milwaukee will still be around in the future to help see Madison through the hard times.