Crime in Madison.... (Milwaukee, Appleton, Woodman: transplants, neighborhood, school)

[gold*dust1]

Originally Posted by ryanj0

Give me a break... Unless I said both things, that 07-08 was a good trend and the 20 year numbers were not a trend, this is just wrong.... No, I do not believe 07-08 was a trend either, simply because a trend needs more than that... Madison does not have an upwards or downwards trend in regards to crime, every year is different... Some years it's up some years it's down... You try to point out a contraindiction here, but you are foolish... You cannot put the words of someone else in my mouth... There has not been an upwards (bad) or downwards (good) TREND in Madison... And there are many other cities I am sure that I could say the same about, I just don't pay attention to stats in other cities...

Deep breaths....maybe the trend is down one year up the next Time will tell, but we have definitely been experiencing some unpleasantries that I find significant. Of course we are not Gary Indiana Any fool that hasn't just fallen off the turnip truck would realize that. I think your not giving lurkers enough credit or feel too much personal responsibility for what is written here. I know that your particular stance has been addressed in previous threads so at some point it becomes redundant. One member can't decide how others are allowed to answer questions posed so this "trend" debate could go on forever!

Carry on

[Chelito23]

Originally Posted by ryanj0

Give me a break... Unless I said both things, that 07-08 was a good trend and the 20 year numbers were not a trend, this is just wrong.... No, I do not believe 07-08 was a trend either, simply because a trend needs more than that... Madison does not have an upwards or downwards trend in regards to crime, every year is different... Some years it's up some years it's down... You try to point out a contraindiction here, but you are foolish... You cannot put the words of someone else in my mouth... There has not been an upwards (bad) or downwards (good) TREND in Madison... And there are many other cities I am sure that I could say the same about, I just don't pay attention to stats in other cities...

Your personal attack on me has nothing to do with this thread. Also, before you continue to get your feathers ruffled, I said another poster pointed out the 20 increase...not the same one. Read more carefully next time before you have a knee jerk reaction and decide to attack another poster.

[ryanj0]

Originally Posted by Chelito23

Your personal attack on me has nothing to do with this thread. Also, before you continue to get your feathers ruffled, I said another poster pointed out the 20 increase...not the same one. Read more carefully next time before you have a knee jerk reaction and decide to attack another poster.

No, what you did do was try to use that one person said a good trend a year or two back and another said no trend. The context it was put in was as though there was some sort of contraindictions. You cannot use the words of two different people to form a contraindiction against one person. My stance is that there is no trend in Madison good or Bad and Madison is not the only city (I am sure) that is like this. I am sorry, I did react a bit harshly and for that I do owe you an apology.

[Lookout Kid]

Originally Posted by Careless

A 100% increase over 20 years might not be a huge increase if we're talking about, say, inflation. On the other hand, violent crime and murder rates are down by a third over those same 20 years in the United States as a whole.

edit: at this point I should point out that at least half of my first post here was to point out that South Bend was not, in fact, the murder capital of America. The post I was responding to showed perfectly how a handful of murders can make it seem like they're happening all the time.

You can't look at one year and say there's an upward trend over 20 years. 2008 was just a bad year for murders in Madison. So far it appears that 2009 will not be as bad as 2008.

Here are the murder numbers for Madison going back ten years (source: City-data.com):

1999: 4
2000: 3
2001: 6
2002: 3
2003: 8
2004: 3
2005: 2
2006: 4
2007: 8

There is nothing in these numbers that constitutes an upward trend.

[Lookout Kid]

Originally Posted by Chelito23

I disagree that crime is the same as it was 20 years ago, Madison is much larger now and a look in the daily paper, newscasts or police statistics show that crime is a much more common occurence. Therefore, people rightfully perceive the increase in crime. It isn't just imagined up in their heads.

None of these are reliable. Stats are the only thing that are free from bias (for the most part--though the police can manipulate how certain incidents are reported). Hysteria about crime may be on the rise, but crime is not significantly rising in Madison.

[Lookout Kid]

Originally Posted by Chelito23

Once again, I see posters taking comments out of context. I never said the gangs here were the breeding grounds for the Vice Lords and Crips and Bloods. I said it is a new and emerging problem, and people who do not have kids in local schools tend to not be aware of this.

There have been gangs in Madison since the late 80s. The police were just slow to take them seriously (as is usually the case in communities facing organized gang activity for the first time).

[Chelito23]

Originally Posted by ryanj0

Well here's the problem with citing Madison's murder rates.... It doesn't show an upward trend.... Not from one year to the next... Because Madison has, for a long time, had up and down murder rates year to year... One year you'll have 8, the next year you'll have 4.... It has to continue upward for quite some time to constitute a trend, and in Madison it doesn't do that.... Look at the last 6 years murder rates, you'll see what I mean... It just goes up and down every year or two...

Plus, if you are going to go off murder alone you must dig deeper into those murders... How many were random? Not saying any action justifies killing another human being, but maybe all but one have been targeted as the result of some sort of dispute or provocation... That's over the last 6 years.... Sure, this year you had random shootings out a window, but that has stopped.... Just a few incidents do not constitute an upwards trend.... A few incidents are serious, true... All crime is serious.. But we are not debating whether it is serious or even an issue, we are debating on whether it is an upwards trend and statistically, whether you measure it by murders or violent crime overall, it is not.

And comparing crime from 20 years to now, a 100% increase is not much of an increase... Actually that is VERY small compared to almost any city, if not any city, of Madison's size... That's like comparing apples to oranges, it was a different world 20 years ago, EVERYWHERE...

You made both of those comparisons.

[Chelito23]

Remember that all crimes aren't murder. Just going by the murder rate doesn't tell the whole story...

Also, I don't see any hysteria. I have repeated that Madison is safe overall and is no Detroit. There is no hysteria, but there is a reluctance for certain posters to admit that Madison is not as safe as it used to be.

This is a forum where everyone can share their opinions and experiences, no camp has a monoply on the truth, and if you haven't experienced something first hand and someone else has, or they live in a different part of the city and see a different angle...the best thing to do is listen and dialog, not attack them or their experiences.

[Megan1967]

Okay. I'm not a moderator, so take this for what it is worth. I am under the impression that the point of this forum is to give people who are considering moving to Madison advice regarding key factors which might affect their decision. A variety of view points is very important, but don't you all think you've provided that by now? Personally, I feel we are beating a dead horse here, saying the same things over and over and over (and over and over....).

[gold*dust1]

Originally Posted by Megan1967

Okay. I'm not a moderator, so take this for what it is worth. I am under the impression that the point of this forum is to give people who are considering moving to Madison advice regarding key factors which might affect their decision. A variety of view points is very important, but don't you all think you've provided that by now? Personally, I feel we are beating a dead horse here, saying the same things over and over and over (and over and over....).

Couldn't agree more Megan. We are all entitled to give our own take on any questions posed, so really this thread has ran it's course and could be closed imo.