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Old 05-26-2012, 08:22 AM
 
113 posts, read 308,381 times
Reputation: 170

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse276 View Post
Broke? Right, everyone gets that broke is really code word for 'we can only spend on 'R' boondoggles.'
Exactly. We can't afford things the Republicans don't want. Other stuff is fine. At least the Democrats are consistent. They want to pay for the things they want with taxes. The Republicans spend on things they want but don't offset it with taxes. Anything they disagree with is labeled as "waste". It's actually ingenious. The Republicans are much better at the political game.
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Old 05-26-2012, 01:36 PM
 
Location: Milwaukee
1,042 posts, read 1,993,967 times
Reputation: 1835
This report by the International Center for Technology Assessment (CTA) identifies and quantifies the many external costs of using motor vehicles and the internal combustion engine that are not directly reflected in the retail price Americans pay for gasoline. These are costs that consumers pay indirectly by way of increased taxes, insurance costs, and retail prices in other sectors.

The report divides the external costs of gasoline usage into five primary areas: (1) Tax Subsidization of the Oil Industry; (2) Government Program Subsidies; (3) Protection Costs Involved in Oil Shipment and Motor Vehicle Services; (4) Environmental, Health, and Social Costs of Gasoline Usage; and (5) Other Important Externalities of Motor Vehicle Use. Together, these external costs total $558.7 billion to $1.69 trillion per year, which, when added to the retail price of gasoline, result in a per gallon price of $5.60 to $15.14.

TAX SUBSIDIES


There you have it. The cost of driving is far greater than most realize. Commuter trains work well in places like NYC or Tokyo. It takes great pressure off the roads, highways etc and is very cost effective in dense urban environment. In other words our driving has subsidies of a minimum of $2.00 per gallon or the price of a subway fare in New York.
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Old 05-27-2012, 07:24 AM
 
Location: East Side Milwaukee
711 posts, read 1,683,717 times
Reputation: 454
Quote:
Originally Posted by northbound74 View Post
Military, police, firefighters, roads... sometimes public schools, most conservatives don't have issues with. At some point you have to say stop, because freedoms seriously get infringed upon. There are inconsistencies on both sides concerning the repealing of everyone's liberties.

Yes, our highways are subsidized, but allow for so much commerce to take place, that they more than pay for themselves through the taxes that commerce generates. A commuter train doesn't do that, nor can you run tracks everywhere you need to go... unless you want to see train tracks behind every Wal-Mart, Target, grocery store, mall, restaurant, school, factory, warehouse, etc.
Don't give me the 'both sides do it' BS excuse. That's like saying both sides are armed, dems with a cap gun, r's with a nuke.

Also, the subsidy argument is a little tired. No one wants too eliminate roads, just pay your own way. Commerce will still carry on & most of us will have extra money in our pockets, money that we can use to drive the economy.
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Old 05-27-2012, 12:27 PM
 
Location: Milwaukee
1,042 posts, read 1,993,967 times
Reputation: 1835
We may want to rethink this equation. How long can the government afford to subsidize driving at such a large costs. Upwards of 10% of the entire GDP of the United States goes to subsidize roads, gas, our ability to drive etc. Its not free and the costs per household runs well into the thousands. The ratio to driving subsidizes compared mass transit subsidizes is at least 50 to 1. Mass transit is very small in the US outside of NYC and a few others.

The cost of driving is one of the reasons this country is going off a financial cliff. People need to know the truth and true costs. This driving is free is pure fiction.

Efficient mass transit can help lower the cost. It also will be subsidizes, but the ability to take thousands off the road will greatly reduce accidents, the lifespan and durability of our roads, dependence of imported oil, insurance claims, lives lost in accidents, police to patrol the roads and other infrastructure costs. This money which could be saved and put into more productive uses. The consumer could also save money due the the low cost of mass transit. One major auto repair could easily cover an entire years cost of mass transit. Again saved money which could again go to productive use.

Of course we all enjoy our cars and the freedom they bring. I own a few myself and drive all over, but people need to keep an open mind and look at other options. Everything has a price and we need to determine at what cost are we willing to keep the status que. WIth emerging markets having massive population (China 1.3 billion, India 1.0 billion) it is only a matter of time before carbon energy sources skyrocket in price. The myth of the oil in the US is covered in half truths and hyperbole. The oil left in the US and Canada is expensive and energy intense to extract. It is oil shale and tar sands and is very expensive upwards of $80 to $100 barrel to make a profit and the Energy invested to Energy return ratio is very small. In other words it takes almost as much energy to remove as it provides. Add to this the damage done by fracking to our water table and the open pit mining of tar sands. That is why the US has begun to become an oil producer, it is now profitable to drill.
The oil the Saudi's provide cost around $20 a barrel to remove and has a ER=EI ration of 100 to 1. North Dakota or Tar Sands 3 to 1 ER=EI ratio with the cost between $60 - $100 to remove.

In other words the high price of oil is here to stay regardless of what pundits and politicians tell us. We most continue to adapt and keep our options open and mass transit must be a viable option.

Last edited by Allan Trafton; 05-27-2012 at 12:51 PM..
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Old 05-27-2012, 07:43 PM
 
3,326 posts, read 8,829,674 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse276 View Post
Don't give me the 'both sides do it' BS excuse. That's like saying both sides are armed, dems with a cap gun, r's with a nuke.

Also, the subsidy argument is a little tired. No one wants too eliminate roads, just pay your own way. Commerce will still carry on & most of us will have extra money in our pockets, money that we can use to drive the economy.
You're kidding, right? The incompetent circus that is the republican party is hardly anything to be afraid of or complain about. The party that gave us W., then trotted out McCain/Palin last time around, and lost to an extraordinarily inexperienced and shallow Obama? The party that lost twice to Clinton? Republicans are certainly not better at the political game.
And yes, BOTH sides are equally as guilty of bad habits as the other. Everyone's entitled to an opinion, but I see little difference in the two parties, personally.

I know nobody wants to eliminate roads, nor are we all against mass transit or commuter trains. Okay, so let's slow down our building of roads or the subsidizing of them and see what happens.
People can fudge the numbers and claim social ills associated with roads all they want (I won't mention the hideous social ills brought on by the well-intentions of an ultimately immoral and corrupt welfare system), but considering those roads (and all the oil-consuming vehicles that travel them) gave rise to the worlds largest economy, millions of jobs, trillions in tax revenue... whatever money we've thrown at them, no matter how wasteful and disorganized it has been at times, has been a drop in the bucket for what they've allowed us to earn. For better and worse, virtually every single thing in this economy depends on roads, vehicles, and oil. Trains would not have brought us the same results.
I love trains. I get nostalgic for trains. I wouldn't mind to see a few more of them around. But for crying out loud, at least do it right if we're going to build the things in a state with already high taxes, high cost of living, and lackluster wages. A "high-speed" train that barely outruns the average Amtrak, and is easily outran by the average Geo Metro is just nonsense and downright embarrassing.
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Old 05-27-2012, 09:57 PM
 
Location: Milwaukee
1,042 posts, read 1,993,967 times
Reputation: 1835
There is no question the value the road and interstate has given our economy and the mobility it has provided. What I question is this ongoing myth that there is no subsidizes with driving, as if it where free or something and mass transit is nothing but a complete cost to the taxpayers.

The problem we face in the United States is that we have put all our eggs in one basket. Which is cheap energy and more specifically oil. We accepts this as a given which will go on forever. We feel we had some God given right to cheap energy and if it doesn't occur we will blame and demand our government that we get cheap oil.

We have no plan B. Only the poor and a few others use mass transit, again NYC exception. You are basically a cripple in this country without a car. A second class citizen. Wouldn't it be nice if we had options such as they have in Amsterdam. A car, bike, train, bus, walking all works well there. It is efficient, on time, clean and safe and people use it. In the US if we have an energy shock we are screwed. A major run up in price of oil due to shortage or a war with Iran would create chaos. Things would come to a grinding halt. If peak oil occurs, my advice is get the hell out of the US. It is the last place you would want to live. The place will collapse.

What corrupt social welfare has to do with mass transit I have no idea.
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Old 05-28-2012, 07:50 PM
 
87 posts, read 150,087 times
Reputation: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan Trafton View Post
There you have it....Commuter trains work well in places like NYC or Tokyo.
Simple economics Allan.
There has to be a population density great enough to make the outrageous costs of trains to be economically feasible--thus places like NYC, tokyo, and any other very high population density place.

It is an economic black hole elsewhere. Anyplace that has had a commuter/light rail put in that didn't have it before, well, it's pretty easy to see how much of a taxpayer drain it is. Lots of empty cars most of the time.

Like you said allan, they work well in nyc, tokyo and the like. Not milwaukee, green bay, madison, etc.

Quote:
It takes great pressure off the roads,
Certainly it would allan--provided they go to where someone wants to go and comes from a place where someone lives. Oh, and in a timely manner, not to mention not having to transfer to a couple of different rail lines.

If you're into mass transit, take a bus--they're more efficient in many ways and sometimes even gets a person where they want to go in a somewhat timely manner. It's just the screaming kids or the smelly drunk that sits next to you that's a drag. And standing in the cold or rain for that hour long trip that you could drive in 15 minutes.....

But other than those.....
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Old 05-28-2012, 07:55 PM
 
87 posts, read 150,087 times
Reputation: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan Trafton View Post
You are basically a cripple in this country without a car.
I lived about a total of five years without a car. I rode my bike and/or took buses. Or walked (One time I lived in a central business district).

If someone wants to live w/o a car/truck, by all means they can, they just have to want to live that lifestyle. Most people don't want to live that lifestyle, just as most people want to live in their own house and have their own yard, etc. This is why population is dispersed because we as americans want to live like that, not like the europeans do, stacked on top of each other in large flats.
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Old 05-28-2012, 10:19 PM
 
Location: Portland OR
2,649 posts, read 3,831,415 times
Reputation: 4830
Kchomps
Great post

Allan,
Understand the costs you mention are also millions of people's income.
People want their cars. It is ok.
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Old 05-29-2012, 09:53 AM
 
Location: East Side Milwaukee
711 posts, read 1,683,717 times
Reputation: 454
At the end of the day, roads don't pay for themselves. You are increasing sales taxes, income taxes & fees to save 5 minutes on a commute. Of course you're fine with it, you're mooching off the system.

I have better uses for my money & don't need anyone paying my way. It's kind of funny, so many people have a problem with paying for what they use.

It really is that simple.
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