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Old 06-23-2011, 10:23 AM
 
Location: WV and Eastport, ME
10,273 posts, read 10,379,895 times
Reputation: 6932

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mainegrl2011 View Post
This isn't about a lack of compassion for those having tough times who truly need financial assistance. At the risk of sounding repetitive....If people who are applying for a job--government or private sector--can be required to submit to and pass a drug test (can throw fingerprinting in as well if you like) as a condition of hiring and continued employment then why should it be any different for someone on the dole as forest beekeeper called it.

Why should anyone be "punished" for applying for a job by being subjected to a drug test? If you want to give your tax dollars to people who may be using drugs, that is your choice. Personally, I prefer not to do so. I realize not everyone who applies for or receives welfare is using illegal drugs and I did not mean to imply otherwise.

btw, I think forest beekeeper did a great job of explaining about urine tests.

I heard on the radio a few minutes ago that there are jobs in Texas if anyone is interested.
So, if I read your post correctly, you DO want to punish people who apply for welfare, not because the did something wrong, but because they MIGHT be doing something you don't like.
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Old 06-23-2011, 10:26 AM
 
Location: WV and Eastport, ME
10,273 posts, read 10,379,895 times
Reputation: 6932
Quote:
Originally Posted by GatorMama View Post
Those are not the same thing. I'm not taking from other people so that I may sit at home and not pay my own way. With a license, I am paying for that, performing for them to show I know what I'm doing and passing tests to get those licenses.

I take money from no one. Welfare is sorely abused in this country, as you well know, and I view it as stealing, to be honest with you, when someone is sitting on their hind quarters acting like they can't work. First of all, before you go taking money from someone, prove it to me that you need it and prove it to me that you will use it for its intended purpose which is to keep a roof over head and eat food. I am not here to provide for someone's drug habit. I don't see it as taking away a right or infringing on a right.

If you don't want to take a drug test for welfare, you do not have to receive welfare. It's your choice just as it would be if you didn't want to take a drug test for a potential employer..you choose another employer.
It sounds like you want to drug test welfare applicants because you think they are probably abusing the welfare system. Is that a way of saying they are guilty until they prove their innocence?
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Old 06-23-2011, 10:32 AM
 
Location: Northern Maine
9,494 posts, read 14,286,680 times
Reputation: 8909
"Because its a government program, the administrators, have little motive to remove the fraud"

The system depends on recruitment. To preserve and grow the system they need more clients. The new law will not test everybody for drugs. It will test only those who have demonstrated that they are using illegal drugs. Those are the ones who the state does not want to fund their habit. There is no program to test everybody receiving assistance and no such program was proposed to my knowledge.
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Old 06-23-2011, 10:36 AM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
29,722 posts, read 47,483,706 times
Reputation: 17565
Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
I agree. However, when one considers the police departments, fire departments, truck drivers, fireworks handlers, etc., at least there is a modicum of public safety justifying some minimal amount of concern over whether these people are strung out on psychedelic drugs.

The only reason I can see to force a person to submit to a drug test in order to receive some kind of welfare assistance is to punish that person for needing a handout.
If you need a handout; should there be strings attached?

How about saying you can not use welfare to buy junk food?

People today have not been taught to shop in a thrifty manner, nor how to eat nutritious foods.

Is it okay to spend welfare on Twinkies and Mountain Dew?

I can understand when a tax-payer feels offended to see a family of obese kids munching on junk food paid for using their food stamps.

And the obesity is the health problem that will slide them over onto disability.



Are we 'punishing' people like this?

It seems to me that lack of self-control and personal responsibility allows some people to be on the dole for an entire lifetime.



Quote:
.... In addition to Zymer's comment about these things, when done by a government agency, seem to violate a person's 5th amendment right against self-incrimination, also violate a person's 4th amendment right against illegal search (which is what a drug test is) and seizure.

If there is "probable cause" to believe a person is violating a law, a judge will sign a search order and "due process" will ensue. If the government can't get a judge to sign a search order (indicating that they have a REASON for such a 'search'), any drug test they do should be thrown out of court.
You are assuming that criminal proceedings are in order.

Nobody said anything about sending welfare recipients to jail.

Rather simply to stop them from using government funds to buy illegal drugs.
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Old 06-23-2011, 10:38 AM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
29,722 posts, read 47,483,706 times
Reputation: 17565
Quote:
Originally Posted by MainerWannabe View Post
And certainly we should think about where to draw the line. How about nicotine? I see no reason why it could not be decided at some point that one could not buy cigarettes with welfare money... Would that be fair?
Yes. I think so.

Nicotine is a known killer.
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Old 06-23-2011, 10:44 AM
 
Location: Out West
20,596 posts, read 15,424,228 times
Reputation: 24159
Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
It sounds like you want to drug test welfare applicants because you think they are probably abusing the welfare system. Is that a way of saying they are guilty until they prove their innocence?
Is an employer who wants to drug test me before giving me the job saying the same thing to me?

And as I said in my first post on this, it's not a blanket statement, I am not saying everyone abuses the system and does drugs. However, if you want the citizens of the country to take care of you, yes, I do believe you should provide proof that you:

a) are unable to work for whatever reasons, (ie: TRUE disability, not some of the b.s. I've seen over the years)

b) are indeed actively looking for work

c) are using the money for its intended purpose which is to keep a roof over your head and food to eat

As I said, I am not interested in supporting someones drug habit and to deny that people use that welfare money for drugs is to deny reality. I don't think they should use it for alcohol or cigarettes either. I don't know what they use now, a card or something but back in the day, when they were using monopoly money looking things, what they would do is buy their food, get the change back in cash and then use that to buy alcohol and smokes. No. I am not working MY behind off to give you a pack of smoke and a 5th of Jack Daniels. Nor am I working hard for you to give your local drug dealer $20 for a bag of weed. NO!

If you TRULY need the help, more than happy to help. If you TRULY are trying, again, I am MORE than happy to help. But if you are using it to sit around and get high and drunk every day, NO.

And is it a RIGHT to receive welfare? Is it? I'd love to know that because when I was a poor, starving college student, many moons ago, I was eating Top Ramen every day. I was hungry. I asked for help and I was denied. So is welfare a RIGHT? I say it's not a right and therefore, mandatory drug testing for that money is not infringing on anyone's rights.
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Old 06-23-2011, 10:53 AM
 
1,360 posts, read 1,855,908 times
Reputation: 1244
Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
So, if I read your post correctly, you DO want to punish people who apply for welfare, not because the did something wrong, but because they MIGHT be doing something you don't like.
I don't think tax dollars should fund the use of illegal drugs--not quite the same as something I don't like. If they want to spend money they earn on drugs, I may not like it, but it's not my money they are spending. Punish is your word. If I read your post correctly, you consider the requirement of a drug test for welfare recipients (tax dollars) a punishment so.....Why not punish those who apply for money from the government if we're going to punish those who apply for jobs? Why should anyone miss out on the punishment? Don't taxpayers furnishing the money to fund the programs have any rights? It seems that in our society protecting the rights of some infringes on the rights of others.

Last edited by mainegrl2011; 06-23-2011 at 11:02 AM..
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Old 06-23-2011, 11:07 AM
 
1,360 posts, read 1,855,908 times
Reputation: 1244
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Maine Land Man View Post
"Because its a government program, the administrators, have little motive to remove the fraud"

The system depends on recruitment. To preserve and grow the system they need more clients. The new law will not test everybody for drugs. It will test only those who have demonstrated that they are using illegal drugs. Those are the ones who the state does not want to fund their habit. There is no program to test everybody receiving assistance and no such program was proposed to my knowledge.
You are correct and I guess I led the discussion in this direction when I asked why wait until they are convicted or as you say "demonstrated that they are using illegal drugs" to require passing a drug test. Why not test them like a person who is applying for a job. It does make for lively, passionate discussion.
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Old 06-23-2011, 03:53 PM
 
Location: South Portland, Maine
2,356 posts, read 4,936,023 times
Reputation: 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
I agree. However, when one considers the police departments, fire departments, truck drivers, fireworks handlers, etc., at least there is a modicum of public safety justifying some minimal amount of concern over whether these people are strung out on psychedelic drugs.

The only reason I can see to force a person to submit to a drug test in order to receive some kind of welfare assistance is to punish that person for needing a handout.

In addition to Zymer's comment about these things, when done by a government agency, seem to violate a person's 5th amendment right against self-incrimination, also violate a person's 4th amendment right against illegal search (which is what a drug test is) and seizure.

If there is "probable cause" to believe a person is violating a law, a judge will sign a search order and "due process" will ensue. If the government can't get a judge to sign a search order (indicating that they have a REASON for such a 'search'), any drug test they do should be thrown out of court.

We should try to have a little compassion for people who need to ask for help.

I couldn't disagree with that sentiment any more... having drug tests for people on welfare limits abuse of welfare and welfare fraud.. it frees up money to be spent more productively on more deserving recipients..

Welfare or temporary assistance is not supposed to be perminant... contrary to popular belief on the left welfare is a limited resource...

People who are using drugs and are on welfare are not only using welfare resources for illegal activity but are hindering themselves from getting off of welfare by getting a job ( most jobs drug test, illegal and criminal activity adversly effects your ability to get a job, ect ect)... (Would you continue to pay for a child to go to college if he/she wouldnt go, or just kept skipping classes and failing out...)

There is a waiting list for section 8 and many other services paid for by the state...

I have yet to hear a single logical explination not to drug test welfare recipients who have been convicted of a drug crime..?

All municiple employees undergo a drug screening, truck drivers, pilots, and many more... no one is forcing anyone to go through this... it is a requirement like any other requirement to recieve welfare... I dont see how this in anyway has anything to do with the 4th Amen..

Last edited by flycessna; 06-23-2011 at 04:47 PM..
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Old 06-23-2011, 05:11 PM
 
17,158 posts, read 22,167,733 times
Reputation: 31223
The gravy train is running out of tracks,

someone mentioned nicotine, you cant buy cigs with the foodstamp card (as far as i know) yet, im willing to bet half the folks on welfare smoke, thats 7 a day 210 a month on average..double it with two smokers in the house..420 a month

I never understood that from a frugality sense, that if you are on hard times, being poor, why throw money away on cigs, beer, pot, drugs, then cry your kids are hungry?!!

im not into legislating behavior, but once the abuse is there, i have no problems with restrictions, and oversight
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