Retirement - Maine vs. New Hampshire Taxes (Bangor, Augusta: rental, insurance)
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The cost of one smartphone for a year is more than the savings a middle-class person gets for living in NH with no sales or income tax in that same year. As a NY'er before I moved to Maine, if I would have moved to NH I would have saved roughly $1500 last year on $32k income in sales and income tax. I have omitted though the purchase of a vehicle, but that was a one-off-per-10-year thing. The cost of a smartphone is $1800-$2000 a year.
People make a big deal about taxes when they never used to. Taxes were not mulled over - opportunity, quality of life value, livability, proximity to services, etc. were the important things. And for most, they make a big deal about taxes but it doesn't change their experience or location. Complaining about low taxes are first world issues.
Are you kidding me? 5% sales tax on virtually everything you buy, and a 8.5% income tax rate on everything over $20,000??????? What do you call "middle-class?" I'm certainly not saying that Maine doesn't have some things going for it (after all I live here), but don't insult everyones intelligence by minimizing the impact of these oppressive rates of taxation. Maine is cited for its high taxes all over the nation. That's a reality, and is keeping people from retiring here.
Are you kidding me? 5% sales tax on virtually everything you buy, and a 8.5% income tax rate on everything over $20,000??????? What do you call "middle-class?" I'm certainly not saying that Maine doesn't have some things going for it (after all I live here), but don't insult everyones intelligence by minimizing the impact of these oppressive rates of taxation. Maine is cited for its high taxes all over the nation. That's a reality, and is keeping people from retiring here.
Phew...where do I start?
Well, we can start at the fact that Maine is the oldest state in the nation. People are retiring here in large numbers. In fact, in my area they are starting to call it "silver" because the only people moving in are retirees due to the low cost of living and property.
5% sales tax is middle of the road; down in NY where I am from some counties are 8%. 8.5% income tax is on the relative higher side but other states with similar tax rates are doing just fine. I find 5% to be refreshing; when I got my vehicle registered I paid the excise tax knowing it went to the town while the woman behind the counter commented I took the news "pretty easy". I said I was educated before I moved here; I also ended up saving about $60 in vehicle registration fees.
The problems with Maine are not taxes - not by any means. The problems with Maine have existed for generations and it is on account of a largely rural, agricultural and aqua-cultural job market which has been in decline for decades. In addition, the paper mills in the northern part and textile mills in the very southern part saw their share of big hits. Increasing transportation costs have exacerbated the problem up here. Making claims that the tax rate is the issue are oversimplified and based on biases which lean towards ideas which are unsupported by sociological or economic data.
Well, we can start at the fact that Maine is the oldest state in the nation. People are retiring here in large numbers. In fact, in my area they are starting to call it "silver" because the only people moving in are retirees due to the low cost of living and property.
I'm not going to debate the taxation issue further. I provided the link a couple posts ago. Comparing Maine to other states listed in that link as being terrible (and claiming Maine is less terrible) doesn't say much.
But I will take issue with the quote above. Yes, Maine is an old state. But it isn't because non-Mainers are flocking here to retire, it's because the young people are leaving, and only the older people remain. Maine is decreasing in population! Please see: List of U.S. states by population growth rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia . Maine is one of only three states with DECREASING population! There's a reason for that, and it isn't a good reason. The taxes that are driving retirees out of Maine, are also driving businesses out of Maine.
I'm not going to debate the taxation issue further. I provided the link a couple posts ago. Comparing Maine to other states listed in that link as being terrible (and claiming Maine is less terrible) doesn't say much.
But I will take issue with the quote above. Yes, Maine is an old state. But it isn't because non-Mainers are flocking here to retire, it's because the young people are leaving, and only the older people remain. Maine is decreasing in population! Please see: List of U.S. states by population growth rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia . Maine is one of only three states with DECREASING population! There's a reason for that, and it isn't a good reason. The taxes that are driving retirees out of Maine, are also driving businesses out of Maine.
You might want to pound the pavement. I assume you live in Bangor? Go down to the mid-coast, Downeast, or Portland area and you will find retirees flocking to these areas. The "net migration" (look that up while you're pushing wikipedia) is -.01% (that's essentially ZERO) but that does not correlate to retirees not moving here. They clearly are, and you were clearly wrong. You are correct, however, in your understanding that younger people are moving.
But this is the thing, I GUARANTEE if an 'exit' poll was done, 90-95% of the young people would not hold "high taxes" as a significant issue, if one at all. I'd venture the vast majority wouldn't even be able to state the sales tax or income tax rates. They are moving because of JOBS, JOBS, JOBS. But you keep convincing yourself that everyone cares about these average taxes like you do. Another smaller issue would be the increase in drugs and the 'dreariness' and despair that comes from that. Also, the cold winters are a significant issue for many of the younger people. I'd bet most put "cold winters" far above "taxes" as a reason for moving.
I'm sure other Mainers can tell you about the influx of people "from away". Out here in Lubec, retiree numbers are soaring and they are coming "from away". I'm sure the same story can be said for Eastport, Ellsworth, Camden, etc.
Did you read what you quoted? It sounds like you're saying essentially the same thing that you're disagreeing with.
LOL...I was waiting for someone would spin it. C'mon, one of those quotes talks about retirees and taxes and I talked about JOBS. Nope, because I don't attribute taxes to the loss of jobs, because the statistics show that TAXES DO NOT SIGNIFICANTLY AFFECT JOBS. Look at a history of taxes in the US. In the 1950's, taxes on the upper class were 3x as much as they are now. Quit spinning it.
Mainers know the paper mills aren't leaving because of taxes. The textile mills did not leave because of taxes. The fish didn't leave because of taxes.
Textiles left because of the proximity to southern cotton farms and lower wages. Paper mills are leaving because lower wages abroad. Fishing left because of overfishing and cheaper products from abroad. Lumber battles between Quebec/NB (which is higher taxed) and Maine are clearly not on account of taxes. Maine economics have always historically followed the ebb and flows of a few specialized industries. One downside of Maine historically has been a lack of diversity - where only a few industries have dominated the region. This has led to historical ups-and-downs with regards to the economy of the region.
The facts, facts, facts, continue to speak otherwise. Most of these industries were dying before the Great Depression, when taxes were lower. They continued to die REGARDLESS of the tax rate.
Also, out-migration has been happening in Maine on and off since the late 19th century.
The people who are driving an agenda believe that wealth is created by lower taxes. This is against historical and economic stats and facts. The people who recognize the information recognize the inverse - that wealth creates lower taxes. Wealth and growth is largely independent of taxation. Taxes don't somehow disappear wealth - they merely move it. Another fallacy is we are relatively more corrupt and wasteful as a government which is false. Ever since Teddy Roosevelt we have generally progressed in decreasing corruption and waste. Obviously there is still corruption and waste but every society will always have that. However, we as a nation have been reaching lows in the amount due to transparency in government which exists. I'm sure the same low-tax thumpers will disagree with that too because it goes against their confirmation bias and principles rather than historical fact.
Last edited by michael_atw; 05-13-2012 at 03:08 PM..
The primary problem with folks living in Maine that I see is the lack of jobs; not progress, not growth, not taxes. But the lack of jobs.
The overall 'tax burden' in Maine is high, but it is not retirees who are paying high taxes. Many of us retirees simply do not pay high taxes in Maine. Corporations and employers pay high taxes in Maine.
The entire big picture of our economics is messed up:
It is cheaper to buy imported lumber instead of local lumber.
It is cheaper to buy potatoes from Idaho instead of local potatoes.
It is cheaper to buy blue-berries imported from Chili instead of Maine blue-berries.
So long as you can not produce anything here that can be marketed across the nation, your not going to have a strong economy.
The primary problem with folks living in Maine that I see is the lack of jobs; not progress, not growth, not taxes. But the lack of jobs.
The overall 'tax burden' in Maine is high, but it is not retirees who are paying high taxes. Many of us retirees simply do not pay high taxes in Maine. Corporations and employers pay high taxes in Maine.
The entire big picture of our economics is messed up:
It is cheaper to buy imported lumber instead of local lumber.
It is cheaper to buy potatoes from Idaho instead of local potatoes.
It is cheaper to buy blue-berries imported from Chili instead of Maine blue-berries.
So long as you can not produce anything here that can be marketed across the nation, your not going to have a strong economy.
Corporations largely don't exist in Maine - nor have there really historically been any. The only corps that exist in Maine are ones that come in and plant their huge ugly box stores around every corner. In the end, these stores are proving they serve no longevity or long-term purpose in American society - let alone Maine's. But that's another debate for another day.
Locally, it is very easy to purchase the items you listed from local vendors. One just has to bypass the middle-man. You have to go straight to the producer. 'Pick your own blueberry' farms locally sell at far less than a grocery store; potatoes I'm sure exist the same way upstate. I'd guess the regulations on the lumber industry in NB/Quebec are lax on account of lobbies by these industries on the governments. Might be wrong. Regardless, there are ways to acquire local goods at cheaper prices but one has to sometimes go off the beaten path.
Also, if I remember correctly, Maine produces 70-80% of the world's(?) blueberries. So I'd say Maine is marketing their products. I'm not sure what type of potatoes are produced in Maine but Idaho potatoes are a unique species - just like reds, Russets, etc.
Corporations largely don't exist in Maine - nor have there really historically been any. The only corps that exist in Maine are ones that come in and plant their huge ugly box stores around every corner. In the end, these stores are proving they serve no longevity or long-term purpose in American society - let alone Maine's. But that's another debate for another day. ...
Okay, so, what we have is a high tax-burden [which means the sum of all Maine tax revenue divided by the population is high].
We also have a high percentage of people who live very frugally on very low incomes, and who pay little to no taxes.
There must be someone somewhere who is paying these thigh taxes. If it is not corporations and employers then who is it?
I routinely hear about how expensive it is, and how restrictive it is, to operate anything beyond a sole-proprietorship in Maine.
I suspect that the majority of the tax-burden in Maine is being carried by employers.
If a high percentage of Mainers have incomes too low to be taxed;
and they drive old beaters whose taxes are only $12/year;
and they own $40k homes with property taxes that are under $500/year;
then these Mainers are clearly not the ones paying high taxes.
Someone else is carrying that high tax-burden.
I agree that the 'tax-burden' of Maine is high. But when I look around I mostly see folks who are not paying high taxes.
To my understanding the only Mainers left to be paying high taxes must be employers. Any employer with more than 5 employees is likely to be an LLC, to protect their insurance rates and restrict liability.
I agree that the 'tax-burden' of Maine is high. But when I look around I mostly see folks who are not paying high taxes.
Yeah, that's what I'm seeing too... fewer and fewer people paying taxes, hence the budget problems in Augusta. But don't worry, we can expect this trend to continue, kinda like California. Oops, they are about to go bunkrupt.
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