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I would like to know from families who live off grid how their experience is, and important things that I should know when deciding to move off grid. We are preparing to do this next spring. Questions I have are what is the best affordable solar systems to use that work, and are their any good wind power systems that work well? If we had a well dug, what are estimates of some costs? We are going to go off grid north of Bangor.
Thank you for any advice you can give.
We not on-gird at this time. Though we have purchased some solar panels and are awaiting their arrival.
As for the 'best', it all changes so much from year to year, who can say? I got a deal on panels at 78cents/watt from a company close-out.
Since I am a pensioner on a very limited budget, I will not be able to afford a whole-house conversion in a single project. So we will likely be shifting one circuit at a time from the utility company over to our own power.
Here in our township we have two neighbors whose homes are off-grid. They both have windmills and photo-voltaic panels. I believe that both of them hate their windmills.
Well drillers all charge by the foot. How deep they drill depends on many factors.
When your getting well estimates skip the guy in Corinth. I hired him and 5 years later I had to dig most of it all up again to install a 'pitless adapter' [he had never installed a pitless adapter on my well casing, he left it with a plastic elbow coming out. Which busted and led to a great deal of work to fix it]. Words fail to express how much of a headache that caused me. Hire a well driller who installs a 'pitless adapter' when he does the job.
Last edited by Submariner; 12-13-2011 at 08:09 PM..
Well drillers all charge by the foot. How deep they drill depends on many factors.
When your getting well estimates skip the guy in East Corinth. I hired him and 5 years later I had to dig most of it all up again to install a 'pitless adapter' [he had never installed a pitless adapter on my well casing, he left it with a plastic elbow coming out. Which busted and led to a great deal of work to fix it]. Words fail to express how much of a headache that caused me. Hire a well driller who installs a 'pitless adapter' when he does the job.
Not all well drillers charge by the foot. I had three different well drillers who quoted a fixed fee for state minimum water flows. Don't know what they are, but it varies as to how many feet per minute of water based on depth of the well.
As for the pitless adapter, how did the pump installer, who might not be the well driller, install the pump if not by using a pitless adapter. There's no way I'm aware of to seal the well casing. What I'd bet happened is the installer used a nylon fitting connecting to the pitless adapter. A quality install uses a brass fitting to connect the plastic pipe to the pitless adapter. Ground settling can move the pipe putting pressure on the nylon fitting causing it to fail. A brass fitting doesn't have that issue.
But I'd like to know how they sealed the well casing several feet below ground level and connected many feet of pipe to it down below frost level inside the well casing without using a pitless adapter.
Not all well drillers charge by the foot. I had three different well drillers who quoted a fixed fee for state minimum water flows. Don't know what they are, but it varies as to how many feet per minute of water based on depth of the well.
I called three well drillers. In each case, they could not give me an estimate, they would only quote a 'by foot' rate. This was in 2005.
Quote:
... As for the pitless adapter, how did the pump installer, who might not be the well driller, install the pump if not by using a pitless adapter. There's no way I'm aware of to seal the well casing. What I'd bet happened is the installer used a nylon fitting connecting to the pitless adapter. ...
The well drilling 'crew' [2 guys with a truck] were followed by the owner's son who installed the pump.
He used a 3/4" 90-degree plastic elbow to go out through the hole in the casing wall, a barb connector, to a flexible tube that leads to my house.
There was no pitless adapter used.
The 'fitting' that connected inside to 1 1/2" black tubing to the submersible well pump; and turned 90-degrees to extend out through the casing was grey plastic. After 5 years of use it cracked and leaked algae into my well.
In 2011, I hired a different well driller to inspect my well. He used a video camera and reported to me that the pitless was missing. In place of where a pitless should have been was a plastic elbow.
I dug the 6 foot hole to expose the area. I dis-connected the tubing to my house. I removed the plastic elbow that the well drilling company had installed.
The hole in the casing was only 3/4".
The smallest pitless requires a minimum of 1 1/4" hole for the pitless to seat.
I re-drilled it out from 3/4" to 1 1/4".
I installed the first pitless adapter that had ever been on my well casing.
Quote:
... A quality install uses a brass fitting to connect the plastic pipe to the pitless adapter.
Yes I agree.
Which is why I urge folks to avoid that well driller.
Quote:
... Ground settling can move the pipe putting pressure on the nylon fitting causing it to fail. A brass fitting doesn't have that issue.
Yes, I agree.
The plastic fitting the well driller used cracked.
I replaced it with a brass pitless adapter.
Quote:
... But I'd like to know how they sealed the well casing several feet below ground level and connected many feet of pipe to it down below frost level inside the well casing without using a pitless adapter.
We have been discussing the problems of living off-grid, which usually center around 1) not enough cash to do it all at once, and 2) not enough power generated, from the cash people have to start such a system.
We think we have some answers. Wind power is out for us, as just finding suitable land is an issue, let alone a place with enough wind most of the year. Plus, the turbines are high and difficult to service -- which they always need when you're least able to do repairs.
Solar panels are expensive, and you need quite a LOT of them to get any decent level of power. But they do have their place, especially with a deep-cycle battery bank. You can start with 4 batteries, with the idea of eventually having a bank of 8 batteries. You'll also need a charge controller and an inverter (to change the batteries' DC to AC power for your appliances).
The beauty of this system is that the bettery bank can be charged in a number of ways. We intend to start with our trusty generator, which can top off a battery bank with just an hour or so or running each morning. Then let the solar panels you can afford keep the batteries going all day. As you can afford more panels, you use the generator less.
The other idea we came up with was to use 12 VDC, in addition. You can run lights, radios, sound systems, small refrigerators, water pumps, fans, etc from 12 VDC. You can power them from the battery bank, or have a separate 12V battery (or more) running independently. These can easily be recharged by small, affordable solar panels. A good source of equipment that runs on 12V can be found in any catalog catering to boat owners. We also like the idea of redundancy, so we will use both systems to power our new home.
If I were planning to live off grid in a new house I would build a super insulated passive solar heated building. I would provide electric power using a Lister Diesel based co-generation (heat and AC/DC electricity) from Central Maine Diesel in Bangor. In addition I might install solar heat collector panels with associated solar electricity to power the fluid transfer pumps for each panel. Heat in deep winter would be provided by the Diesel as well as a wood/hard coal stove(s). Any kitchen in a standalone house should have a wood/coal cooking stove with oven.
The idea is to collect as much solar heat as possible and generate the electricity with a Diesel powered generator. The engines used on the CMD co-gen units can run 24/7 all winter on most anything that will flow at those temperatures. CMD provides a fuel heater so used or new veggie oil can be burned along with #2 home heating oil.
However if utility electric power was available at an affordable price I would connect to the grid even if I were making most of my own electricity and heat. In any case, given new England winter ice storms I would have at least a standby generator and a weeks’ worth of fuel.
I could write an entire book about our experiences, both positive and negative. It is true what an above poster said - most people I know who have windmills are very unhappy. They are noisy, they can throw ice (very dangerous!), and they often malfunction.
What I am finding is that most installers of solar equipment do not really know much about the technical aspects and often sell the wrong thing or do not install properly We are on our 3rd installers/electricians.
The panels is the least of it. The control panel, inverter, etc is where it gets complicated
But first: you have to be sensitive to WHICH products you will be running off-grid. Besides appliances, you have to think of things like your well pump. Ensure you get something called a "soft-start" pump motor. This will avoid major surges.
Even (propane) gas ovens have their caveats. Most use something called a "glow bar" to heat the oven. This uses a LOT of power (albeit for a short time) and to my knowlege, I could only find one brand of oven that does not use a glow bar (although this company started using glow bars as of 2011). I would tell you the brand but frankly it's the worst range I've ever in my life owned and can't recommend it at all.
You mentioned that you want to go off-grid. Most solar installers will try to get you to be "tied" to the grid. Then you can "sell back" any additional electricity you produce to CMP. Sounds nice, but the reality is that you won't likely produce enough "extra" electricity to make you rich lol. This is a MUCH simpler and straightforward system, however, which is really why the installers like to sell it. The reason this is a very bad idea is that if there is a power outtage, you are connected to the grid so you will not have power either!!! Most people do not realize this very important fact.
There are several reasons people have for being off-grid. One is to be more "green" but realize the only "green" is the expense ! If you use batteries to store the power you produce with your solar panels, realize that these batteries (which are similar to golf cart batteries) are good for 5 - 7 years. They are terribly expensive and require maintenance but worse, when they have lived out their useful life, they are a major form of hazardous waste at your local landfill/transfer station. So much for being "green." You will also have to cut down a LOT of trees to ensure you have an adequate clearing so the panels won't be in shade (we use the wood for our wood stove, but for those tree-huggers out there, it is kind of sad to lose so many trees)
Another reason to be off grid is that you live in a very remote area, and bringing in electricity is simply impractical or impossible
Finally, you may philosophically wish to be independent of the power company and their rates, or be independent in case of hard times/major crisis (environmental/natural disaster, war, etc)
Every off grid system needs a back-up system. Besides our wood stove for heat, we have a 1000 gallon buried propane tank and propane-fed Kohler generator, but even the generator is good for a maximum of 5 - 7 days if running at full capacity.
IMO, ideally if you have access to CMP, it would be good to have a 3-way system: independent of the grid, with generator backup, but at the flick of the switch, you can go to an on-grid system That way you've covered all bases and in times without sun for several days, you can also charge your battery supply with CMP so you don't have to use your generator. Right now electricity is a heck of a lot cheaper (and quieter) than running a propane generator . (When we go on-grid, our monthly bill from CMP is $10; propane can be many many times that) The problem is, NO system out there is designed to multitask in this way. We had to custom design ours and we are still refining it and discovering new "issues" all the time. Anyone who would like to get more technical details of our system feel free to message me privately. I don't want to discourage anyone, but just to alert you to the caveats. Good luck.
I forgot to add an important point, which reinforces what was mentioned above: our woodstove, passive solar and super insulation are the most vital ingredients to our home. With passive solar our house gets typically to 63 degrees even on a winter day. We have closed-cell insulation throughout and that really keeps the heat in. We only use the woodstove at night. Between the passive solar and the insulation storing the previous night's heat, we actually find we have to crack a window open, even in winter! The closed-cell insulation was very expensive, but absolutely worth it.
We also installed radiant heat under the (cement) floors which is lovely, but we don't use it because it's too costly to run due to the high cost of propane.
I forgot to add an important point, which reinforces what was mentioned above: our woodstove, passive solar and super insulation are the most vital ingredients to our home. With passive solar our house gets typically to 63 degrees even on a winter day. We have closed-cell insulation throughout and that really keeps the heat in. We only use the woodstove at night. Between the passive solar and the insulation storing the previous night's heat, we actually find we have to crack a window open, even in winter! The closed-cell insulation was very expensive, but absolutely worth it. We also installed radiant heat under the (cement) floors which is lovely, but we don't use it because it's too costly to run due to the high cost of propane.
You have a woodstove, and you installed radiant under-floor PEX.
So why don't you have the woodstove heating the radiant PEX?
Wise words from gcberry and a good question from FBK. My only additional comment is that you should super-insulate with foam, calk all gaps in the exterior and install an outside air source for your combustion air which you can branch and send to each wood fired stove. Make sure that air source slopes down hill away from the building so it can never fill with water. In winter stick a temporary elbow on it to keep the intake above the snow line.
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