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Old 10-21-2012, 07:54 AM
 
1 posts, read 752 times
Reputation: 10

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First off, Hi there, first post for me on this forum! Been following this thread as I am in the process of putting together a 'boiler' system like Submariners, with a few tweeks... As I was getting to the end of the thread and you guys started talking about the batteries, I had to jump in, FORGET BATTERIES! Tie to the grid and use THAT as your battery!

Its fairly simple really, grid tie your system, get a minimal AH backup battery, cause you know the power will go out eventually, but you should only need one or two nights/days of limited power, remember, sunrise will start turning you back on, then add a SMALL marine style wind generator for night time, not one of the $10,000+ systems, simple marine style wind gennies are less than $2,000

To design your PV capacity, you just need to start off small, tie into the grid, and keep adding a panel untill your meter runs backwards more than forwards... now, at night, when you need electricity, its there for you, using up what you 'stored' on the grid.... basically, let the grid be your battery...

As for my double barrrel stove, the only modifications I am placing are to run the copper tube inside the second barrel, around a baffel, which will also serve to keep the vent stack at the rear. I am considering using a 30 gal drum for the second barrel, just so its not so bulky. I am also going to incorporate a second door on the top barrel, to access the baffel and plumbing in case I need too, this will also be on the front.

Questions for Submariner, how have your pumps been holding out, the Toro circ. pump?
Also, as I am in the southwest and have an abundance of sun most of the year, I am working with incorporating this whole sytem with a passive water pool heater system as well, plumbed to the heat bank.

My first off should be started shortly, just ordered the Vogelzang kits, price is not much different these days, though I needed one extra single barrel kit to get the extra door. Which is fine as I will be buildign at least three of these. The first one is for a friends gunshop, where he obviously can not have open flames in the shop. Too much blackpowder floating around in the air! So this stove will be installed just outside the door against the outside wall, which is steel BTW, then the heated water will be plumbed to automotive heat exchangers inside the shop. Plans for this installation, since this is just a metal building on the property, are too enclose this boiler and thermosiphon heat bank in a small 'room'. My hopes are that the added effeciency of placing the copper heat exchanger inside the second barrel will mean faster warmups and less fuel use... I am currious how well your system handles heating a hot tub and pool and if you are still using the 300 gallons of heat bank. Would love too see some pics of that if available. I too have a pretty ready supply of drums, 8 right now though I am going with a salvaged solar water tank for the gunshop system, as they have that tank already, though no solar...

Anyway, thanks for the reads, just wated to let people know that the grid tie systems can eliminate your need for expensive batteries... and a place to PUT all those batteries... which is probably about half the cost of a PV system...

Nice too meet you all, have a great day, Sean
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Old 10-21-2012, 11:45 AM
 
Location: Northern Maine
9,512 posts, read 14,306,716 times
Reputation: 8991
Sean says,

"I am placing are to run the copper tube inside the second barrel, around a baffel, which will also serve to keep the vent stack at the rear."

All your pipe within the stove should be steel, preferably stainless steel. You should support the steel pipe from above with a hooked bolt or U bolt. The biggest possible diameter should be used within the stove to expose your water to the greatest possible surface area. Do NOT put valves on both sides of your loop, If they were ever both closed you could have a steam explosion in your cellar.

This info could serve as a caution to anybody contemplating such a system. I was using such a system in the 1940s. The pipes were in a Franklin stove. I have also used a coal fired stack heater. The element was a coil of steel pipe. It had a check valve system sending water to a copper tank. It would make a quiet ticking sound when in use.
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Old 10-21-2012, 05:43 PM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
29,738 posts, read 47,532,009 times
Reputation: 17595
Quote:
Originally Posted by coconutisland View Post
First off, Hi there, first post for me on this forum!
Welcome


Quote:
... Been following this thread as I am in the process of putting together a 'boiler' system like Submariners, with a few tweeks... As I was getting to the end of the thread and you guys started talking about the batteries, I had to jump in, FORGET BATTERIES! Tie to the grid and use THAT as your battery!
Better to use something reliable.

Not a month goes by without a power-outage. Could be down for an hour, could be 4 days.

Grid tie is a fine idea, but if you want power 24/7, best be thinking about how you plan to get power 24/7.



Quote:
... Its fairly simple really, grid tie your system, get a minimal AH backup battery, cause you know the power will go out eventually, but you should only need one or two nights/days of limited power, remember, sunrise will start turning you back on, then add a SMALL marine style wind generator for night time, not one of the $10,000+ systems, simple marine style wind gennies are less than $2,000
Your thinking the wind blows at night?

I gotta tell my neighbors with windmills about that



Quote:
... To design your PV capacity, you just need to start off small, tie into the grid, and keep adding a panel untill your meter runs backwards more than forwards... now, at night, when you need electricity, its there for you, using up what you 'stored' on the grid.... basically, let the grid be your battery...
So your thinking of buying one charger-controller/invertor, then next time to up-grade buy another?

Each time you re-design your system you need a different charger-controller/invertor.

When the grid goes down your grid tie system goes down too. It is required by law that your system must shut down every time the grid goes down.

You are allowed to have a manual isolation switch so when the grid goes down, you may go out and isolate your home from the grid, then power your home back up in a stand-alone configuration waiting for the grid to come back up. Better maybe to be stand-alone and leave it that way.



Quote:
... As for my double barrrel stove, the only modifications I am placing are to run the copper tube inside the second barrel, around a baffel, which will also serve to keep the vent stack at the rear. I am considering using a 30 gal drum for the second barrel, just so its not so bulky. I am also going to incorporate a second door on the top barrel, to access the baffel and plumbing in case I need too, this will also be on the front.
50-gallon drums come with a removable lid which works as a door.

That baffle idea is a good one, however it will likely creosote up pretty bad.



Quote:
... Questions for Submariner, how have your pumps been holding out, the 'Taco' circ. pump?
Real good.

I used to have 12vdc circ pumps. They cost 5X more and they burn out every 6 months. So I went back to using Taco#7 pumps.

Taco 007-F5-7IFC Circulator Pump (Cast Iron), 1/25 HP Taco 007 Pump



Quote:
... Also, as I am in the southwest and have an abundance of sun most of the year, I am working with incorporating this whole sytem with a passive water pool heater system as well, plumbed to the heat bank.
On average, in my area we get 4.5 hours of usable sunlight every day, enough to efficiently power solar panels.

Phoenix Az for example gets 6.5 hours.

Solar Electric System Sizing Step 4 - Determine the Sun Hours Available Per Day,solar power,solar power home,solar power system,solar power plant,residential solar power,power services solar,solar power panel,residential solar power system,solar powe



Quote:
... My first off should be started shortly, just ordered the Vogelzang kits, price is not much different these days, though I needed one extra single barrel kit to get the extra door. Which is fine as I will be buildign at least three of these. The first one is for a friends gunshop, where he obviously can not have open flames in the shop. Too much blackpowder floating around in the air! So this stove will be installed just outside the door against the outside wall, which is steel BTW, then the heated water will be plumbed to automotive heat exchangers inside the shop. Plans for this installation, since this is just a metal building on the property, are too enclose this boiler and thermosiphon heat bank in a small 'room'. My hopes are that the added effeciency of placing the copper heat exchanger inside the second barrel will mean faster warmups and less fuel use...
Sounds like you will be having some fun with that.



Quote:
... I am currious how well your system handles heating a hot tub and pool and if you are still using the 300 gallons of heat bank.
Yes.



Quote:
... thanks for the reads, just wated to let people know that the grid tie systems can eliminate your need for expensive batteries... and a place to PUT all those batteries... which is probably about half the cost of a PV system...

Nice too meet you all, have a great day, Sean
PhotoVoltaic provides a nice backup for the grid, as well as a good stand alone energy source.
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Old 10-21-2012, 05:46 PM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
29,738 posts, read 47,532,009 times
Reputation: 17595
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Maine Land Man View Post
Sean says,

"I am placing are to run the copper tube inside the second barrel, around a baffel, which will also serve to keep the vent stack at the rear."

All your pipe within the stove should be steel, preferably stainless steel. You should support the steel pipe from above with a hooked bolt or U bolt. The biggest possible diameter should be used within the stove to expose your water to the greatest possible surface area. Do NOT put valves on both sides of your loop, If they were ever both closed you could have a steam explosion in your cellar.

This info could serve as a caution to anybody contemplating such a system. I was using such a system in the 1940s. The pipes were in a Franklin stove. I have also used a coal fired stack heater. The element was a coil of steel pipe. It had a check valve system sending water to a copper tank. It would make a quiet ticking sound when in use.
Good advice.

Also always install a pressure relief valve.

ALWAYS!



There are forums dedicated to woodstove water heating, they have photos of systems after they exploded. Wow they make big booms!
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Old 10-23-2012, 12:16 PM
 
Location: Log "cabin" west of Bangor
5,493 posts, read 6,435,052 times
Reputation: 9404
Quote:
When the grid goes down your grid tie system goes down too. It is required by law that your system must shut down every time the grid goes down.

You are allowed to have a manual isolation switch so when the grid goes down, you may go out and isolate your home from the grid, then power your home back up in a stand-alone configuration waiting for the grid to come back up. Better maybe to be stand-alone and leave it that way.
Alternatively, for automatic operation you would need a system that is capable of detecting certain signals which are present in the grid when it is operating. Then, when the grid goes down and those signals are not present, the control module disconnects the system from the grid until such time as it senses the presence of those signals again.

This is not a 'stupid' law. The requirement for such a disconnect is to prevent injury/death to any person(s) who must manipulate the lines in the event of a problem. If one or more self-generating systems were feeding into the grid, someone could get zapped...and I can tell you from first-hand experience working with high-voltage that this can be somewhat unpleasant if it doesn't kill you (I don't have any first-hand experience of how unpleasant it might be if it *does* kill you, since I haven't been killed that way...yet...but a kid that I did see get killed like that had an unhappy look on his face).
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Old 10-23-2012, 12:37 PM
 
Location: On a Slow-Sinking Granite Rock Up North
3,637 posts, read 5,266,534 times
Reputation: 2650
Cheapest way to heat home in ME winter?


Close it up and move to Florida
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Old 10-23-2012, 12:38 PM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
29,738 posts, read 47,532,009 times
Reputation: 17595
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zymer View Post
Alternatively, for automatic operation you would need a system that is capable of detecting certain signals which are present in the grid when it is operating. Then, when the grid goes down and those signals are not present, the control module disconnects the system from the grid until such time as it senses the presence of those signals again.

This is not a 'stupid' law. The requirement for such a disconnect is to prevent injury/death to any person(s) who must manipulate the lines in the event of a problem. If one or more self-generating systems were feeding into the grid, someone could get zapped...and I can tell you from first-hand experience working with high-voltage that this can be somewhat unpleasant if it doesn't kill you (I don't have any first-hand experience of how unpleasant it might be if it *does* kill you, since I haven't been killed that way...yet...but a kid that I did see get killed like that had an unhappy look on his face).
I understand the need for it. I did not intend to imply that such a law is stupid.

Gird-tie is no more 'reliable' than the grid is. When the grid goes down you go down.

If you want reliable power, you need stand-alone.
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Old 10-24-2012, 01:17 PM
 
Location: Log "cabin" west of Bangor
5,493 posts, read 6,435,052 times
Reputation: 9404
Quote:
Originally Posted by Submariner View Post
I understand the need for it. I did not intend to imply that such a law is stupid.
Nor did I intend to imply that you made any such implication. It was merely a pre-emptive strike to forestall any comments that it might be. (Not that such things would ever happen on *this* board.)
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