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Old 09-21-2012, 06:16 AM
 
1,361 posts, read 1,863,855 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ejlorge View Post
With all due respect, MBM, this is a flawed analogy.

Wealth distribution does nothing to take away from the personal or intellectual achievements of an individual, rather to alleviate the material lack of (poverty) from the whole. It's a practice goes back as far as the Roman Republics.

A better analogy would have been, if your son went to an apple orchard with his class. All the students were given baskets and told they can gather as many apples as they want– bit that they were going to have to give some back at the end.

Your son was fast and in good health, (thankfully), so at the end of of the time there he had a basket overflowing with apples. More than he'll be able to eat. However, there were many students who weren't so lucky; they were too slow, or too sick or incapable for whatever reason to get very many apples. So all of the students who did well gave back some apples to the the collective basket, and slow and sick ones were given a supplementary portion from the collective basket.

This may not be a PERFECT analogy, but you get the point. They're just apples. They don't add or take away from the accomplishments of a person– like doing well in school.
hate to say it, but I think grading on a curve enters into this discussion somewhere...once students figure out what is being done, pressure is put on the high achiever by others in the class to make a lower score so all those making a C will end up with an A without putting forth as much effort preparing for the test. Instead of encouraging everyone to put forth more effort, the opposite occurs.

It would seem logical that the same thing will inevitably happen if this principle is applied to the economy. The hardest workers will lose incentive/motivation to work hard if the fruit of their labor is taken from them and distributed to others who can't work or those who refuse to work....over time, more and more people say what's the use? there's no way I can get ahead....most people have no problem helping those who truly can't care for themselves. More jobs for more people (more people employed) sounds more sensible than more handouts for more people.
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Old 09-21-2012, 07:56 PM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
29,765 posts, read 47,651,207 times
Reputation: 17651
Quote:
Originally Posted by ejlorge View Post
... This may not be a PERFECT analogy, but you get the point. They're just apples. They don't add or take away from the accomplishments of a person– like doing well in school.
How many apples you have in your basket, ARE how many apples you accomplished picking. That is your accomplishment.

Removing apples from your basket is taking away from your accomplishment.
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Old 09-21-2012, 11:12 PM
 
Location: On a Slow-Sinking Granite Rock Up North
3,637 posts, read 5,274,553 times
Reputation: 2650
Quote:
Originally Posted by ejlorge View Post
With all due respect, MBM, this is a flawed analogy.

Wealth distribution does nothing to take away from the personal or intellectual achievements of an individual, rather to alleviate the material lack of (poverty) from the whole. It's a practice goes back as far as the Roman Republics.

A better analogy would have been, if your son went to an apple orchard with his class. All the students were given baskets and told they can gather as many apples as they want– bit that they were going to have to give some back at the end.

Your son was fast and in good health, (thankfully), so at the end of of the time there he had a basket overflowing with apples. More than he'll be able to eat. However, there were many students who weren't so lucky; they were too slow, or too sick or incapable for whatever reason to get very many apples. So all of the students who did well gave back some apples to the the collective basket, and slow and sick ones were given a supplementary portion from the collective basket.

This may not be a PERFECT analogy, but you get the point. They're just apples. They don't add or take away from the accomplishments of a person– like doing well in school.

Back in the days before society insidiously became "What's in it for me?" this was called "The right thing to do." or "compassion" or "charity."

In other words, we lacked the need to regulate decency. We just did what needed to be done for those who couldn't do for themselves, and it was kind of a no-brainer.

Furthermore, we did it quietly and without the need to toot our own horns about it repeatedly. This doesn't seem to be the modus operandi today. Maybe it's just me.

Last edited by cebdark; 09-21-2012 at 11:37 PM..
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Old 09-21-2012, 11:18 PM
 
Location: On a Slow-Sinking Granite Rock Up North
3,637 posts, read 5,274,553 times
Reputation: 2650
Quote:
Originally Posted by mainegrl2011 View Post
hate to say it, but I think grading on a curve enters into this discussion somewhere...once students figure out what is being done, pressure is put on the high achiever by others in the class to make a lower score so all those making a C will end up with an A without putting forth as much effort preparing for the test. Instead of encouraging everyone to put forth more effort, the opposite occurs.

It would seem logical that the same thing will inevitably happen if this principle is applied to the economy. The hardest workers will lose incentive/motivation to work hard if the fruit of their labor is taken from them and distributed to others who can't work or those who refuse to work....over time, more and more people say what's the use? there's no way I can get ahead....most people have no problem helping those who truly can't care for themselves. More jobs for more people (more people employed) sounds more sensible than more handouts for more people.
More jobs sounds more sensible to me too, but first we must be willing to buy the apples here and maybe spend a little more.

I love the political ads where they spend 30 to 60 seconds absolutely lambasting the other candidate, and at the tail end of the advertisement the very last sentence spoken is:

"MAINE NEEDS JOBS."

Yeah, well no shiittake mushrooms Sherlock. What exactly are you going to DO to help accomplish that?
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Old 09-26-2012, 02:12 PM
 
Location: Log "cabin" west of Bangor
5,502 posts, read 6,454,390 times
Reputation: 9444
Lots of good replies here in the last few pages, can't rep them because I apparently haven't 'spread it around' enough.

Another analogy- the economy is a wagon, some are riding and some are pulling, and it's a lot easier to ride than pull; when there are too many people riding and not enough left to pull, the wagon is going to grind to a halt. I started pulling when I was 8, and 40-some odd years later, I'm damn well getting tired. I may not be quite ready to jump on and ride yet, but I sure as shootin' am thinking real hard about not pulling anymore.
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Old 10-06-2012, 09:25 AM
 
26 posts, read 34,515 times
Reputation: 37
zymer, Hit the nail on the head, I am 52 and still pulling, its all most over for me. As of last week Maine has 389000 on some type of welfair and there are only 680000 tax filers in the state. Of the 680000 about 125000 of them do not pay any state income tax.

Last edited by BillAck; 10-06-2012 at 10:31 AM..
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Old 10-06-2012, 09:42 AM
 
Location: Bangor Maine
3,442 posts, read 5,446,310 times
Reputation: 3974
Every time we purchase something in Maine we pay a "state sales tax"
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Old 10-06-2012, 12:02 PM
 
17,231 posts, read 22,278,244 times
Reputation: 31405
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newdaawn View Post
Every time we purchase something in Maine we pay a "state sales tax"
Ive been wondering when the state is going to go after the lawn salers and flea-marketers, and craig listers- I dont know how they'd do it,,, but im surprised with the tax-predators we've had elected in the past,,,they havent tried

they did crack down on the bingo folks,,, even lemonade stands..... and even went after subway for giving thier employees a free sandwich,,,,,the state wanted their food tax...
sounds so ridiculous ,,its almost comical..
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Old 10-06-2012, 12:19 PM
 
Location: On a Slow-Sinking Granite Rock Up North
3,637 posts, read 5,274,553 times
Reputation: 2650
Quote:
Originally Posted by mainebrokerman View Post
Ive been wondering when the state is going to go after the lawn salers and flea-marketers, and craig listers- I dont know how they'd do it,,, but im surprised with the tax-predators we've had elected in the past,,,they havent tried

they did crack down on the bingo folks,,, even lemonade stands..... and even went after subway for giving thier employees a free sandwich,,,,,the state wanted their food tax...
sounds so ridiculous ,,its almost comical..

How about the "under the table" workers too. I find this especially true of seasonal laborers who (for example) work for a landscaping or construction company all summer, get laid off, and then plow snow for the very same company during the winter while collecting unemployment. I know of more than one or two companies who are willing to do this.

That annoys me to no end. Of course, the owners of said companies are quick to criticize the fact that people don't pay taxes even though they don't seem to see their roles in the situation (or they just don't care for that matter as long as the job gets done). Guess who's employees will then qualify for benefits due to a "drop" of income (at least on paper anyway)?

There is a law on the books which require people to file taxes for whatever they've bought out of state (or on the internet) and paid no state sales tax on, but realistically speaking, how many people are going to voluntarily put that on their tax returns?
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Old 10-06-2012, 01:30 PM
 
17,231 posts, read 22,278,244 times
Reputation: 31405
Quote:
Originally Posted by reloop View Post
How about the "under the table" workers too. I find this especially true of seasonal laborers who (for example) work for a landscaping or construction company all summer, get laid off, and then plow snow for the very same company during the winter while collecting unemployment. I know of more than one or two companies who are willing to do this.

That annoys me to no end. Of course, the owners of said companies are quick to criticize the fact that people don't pay taxes even though they don't seem to see their roles in the situation (or they just don't care for that matter as long as the job gets done). Guess who's employees will then qualify for benefits due to a "drop" of income (at least on paper anyway)?

There is a law on the books which require people to file taxes for whatever they've bought out of state (or on the internet) and paid no state sales tax on, but realistically speaking, how many people are going to voluntarily put that on their tax returns?
All good points,,,
I believe they can be fined for paying under the table..... they are also putting themselves at risk, if they get hurt..

I also think (unfortunately) there's a mindset, that if over 40% of the population is on some sort of welfare....then why cant I get away with this???????
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