12-11-2007, 07:26 PM
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ok, I read the article. i'll admit i just don't know all the details about what's going on up there. so is this essentially a good or bad thing for maine? in one way i see it as a good thing, it would mean preserving land correct? but then, i understand that people will not have access to hunt and timber either and that the economy would suffer greatly. but are they taking land from people? this part i just don't understand. i know they are making it hard for lumber co. to do business but what about smaller co. are they still able to function? could someone give this to me in laymens terms i'm sure i'm not the only one who is not fully aware of the goings on surrounding this issue. thanks
12-11-2007, 07:28 PM
Location: Maine
7,727 posts, read
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I saw a "Plum Creek" bumper sticker on a caravan today, I was in a bad mood and wanted to get out of my car and rip it off.
12-11-2007, 07:32 PM
Location: Northern Maine
10,428 posts, read
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Some of those homes were there on private land before the surrounding ground was nationalized. They are still private homes on private land. Some families don't quit.
That's why.
12-11-2007, 07:40 PM
378 posts, read
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Northern Maine Land Man
Some of those homes were there on private land before the surrounding ground was nationalized. They are still private homes on private land. Some families don't quit.
That's why.
Sorry NMLM I'd be ALL FOR THAT. What I am talking about is the new development enabled by the current administration. (within the last six years)
Thank you for differentiating my point.
It's APPALLING to take land from one set of people, pretend to be 'nationalizing' it and then turn around and let others redevelop it.
I'm all for the little old lady in New York holding her own against all the condo towers.
She wants to stay in the home she was born in. I agree.
Looked for a link, couldn't find it. Sorry
12-11-2007, 07:53 PM
Location: God's Country, Maine
2,054 posts, read
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Reputation: 1305
The Plum Creek conservation easement will allow for traditional use, but not further residential development. There are a couple of million acres up here. The could go through with less public scrutiny if they wanted.
The small logging operations will still be able to function. The truckers will still be hauling. The guides will still bring up their sports.
Sure, there is some hand wringing by some who will increase their customer base and look forward to more business. I own a half an acre of prime commercial downtown. I don't care one way or the other.
Granted, the lots will sell for $200-300k, but, that is the target crowed we cater to up here. We still get the traditional campers and camp owners and that will not change. This place is a long drive from the major metropolitan areas and those that want to be here will buy in. Nothing will change for the locals and there will be extra work for all. Most of the ones I see complaining are the owners who have already built here and thought that they would be the special ones. I always ask them why they didn't just buy extra lots.
It really is no different then the Birches. The owner is selling mucho lots on his property in Somerset County, including Brassua Lake. Another contractor bought hundreds of acres in Rockwood a couple of years ago, split them up and every one of the lots have been sold. Ditto for a friend of mine with Elm Pond Township, north of Moosehead.
The North Woods has changed and there is no turning back the clock. If you don't have planned development, you will have some sort of weird sprawl.
12-11-2007, 07:59 PM
Location: Northern Maine
10,428 posts, read
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Reputation: 11562
In layman's terms:
A private company wants to develop about one percent of its land. They would develop one house lot per 1.5 townships they own each year over the next 30 years. This is far less than the present rate of development. Even this miniscule development is too much for the environmental industry. To mitigate the fierce resistance to this tiny bit of development proposed the company has volunteered to give up development rights on over 400,000 acres and 60 lakes or ponds forever. That pleased a couple of environmental organizations, but you must understand that these groups function as a tag team in a wrestling match. You make an agreement with one outfit and another one pops up like a gopher from his hole and demands something else. It never ends. Keep your eye on their prize. Never forget that their ultimate goal is no human use. Yes, even the granola crunching bird watchers and hikers will also be banned in the end.
(A township is 23040 acres or 36 square miles. 1.5 townships is 54 square miles or 34,560 acres. Plum Creek wants one camp or house in this huge area each year and it's too much for the environmental industry.)
That should do it in layman's terms.
12-11-2007, 08:09 PM
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Reputation: 39992
ive talked to many in greenville about the plum-creek development, most of the natives ive talked to initially had reservations,,,but thru time and understanding the details, most were either for.. or ambivalent about it.
a resident of greenville said the population is approx 1900 folks in greenville, and its a very seasonal town, and thru the past 15 yrs, alot of out of staters have bought much property in town,,which most are for,,
most natives of the town, have to work for a living, with more people and money in town (year round, and seasonal) the more jobs available, whether its a hardware store, landscaping, contractors, builders, restaurants,,motels,..they all thrive and depend on more people in the area,
and because property values have skyrocketed, many have benefitted by thier property values going up!
in plum creek develops the land, and more folks move into the town,,,then again, its better for many natives there!!
for the folks who havent been in the greenville/moosehead lake area, it is a beautiful area, the lake is 38 miles long and the largest in maine,,its gods country in that area,,there are state parks around the lake,,,
plum creek owns the land, and from what ive heard, they have scaled down thier original development plans,,because of the loud voices out of portland,,
if anyone thinks we are diminishing the pristine beauty of maine,,i say take a ride to that area of the state,,also take a ride to mount katahdin area and rangely area,just to see how pristine and vast maine is (unspoiled),
if you still arent convinced drive up rte 11 from patten to ft kent or drive south from houlton to calais.
tho these areas are most trees and forest,,if you drive these areas the views may be breathtaking,,but you will also see many small towns,,and folks trying to scrape by, that would welcome most any development that will bring jobs,,
one store owner years ago in limestone summed it up quite well(when i was asking with excitement that mbna was coming in the area,,,she said, "we need more people to move
in the area to replace the young ones that leave" (go to college or move out of state for better opportunities)
maine has a huge amount of forest-lands, plenty for all out door recreation, but also plenty for development that brings more folks to maine,
when talking to one out of stater, that lived in jersey most of his life,,,he said most in a big city cannot comprehend the vastness and unpopulated areas of areas like maine,,so "development" and sprawl" always have a negative connotation.. but after seeing maine's wilderness firsthand,,there's plenty here for both (recreation and development)
at a distance, its a feel-good concept to say halt development to preserve nature,,
it almost goes to an enviromental-religious philosophy(i have a few friends that are tree-huggers) but they talk in broad terms,,
i give two thumbs up for the plum creek development,,they own the land!! and if you drive to greenville today,,you will notice ,,coming into town on indian-hill to the right,,there is a vacant building,,it was a mcdonalds,, a mcdonalds couldnt even make it in greenville,...
with more folks moving to maine,,,it brings necessary jobs!!!
12-12-2007, 05:32 AM
Location: Northern Maine
10,428 posts, read
18,562,067 times
Reputation: 11562
Maine is bigger than the rest of New England combined. Maine's population is smaller than the population of the city of Phoenix. What you must understand is that the goal of the environmental industry is rural cleansing. They don't want us here.
12-12-2007, 08:22 AM
Location: Free Palestine, Ohio!
2,722 posts, read
6,385,168 times
Reputation: 4844
We have seen "Eco-friendly" non for profit groups in the western mountains also.
They come here and determine that the traditional use of our pristine land is being mismanaged by the families that have inhabited this area for generations. They procure Federal and State tax dollars to purchase vast tracts of land. This land immediately is removed from the tax rolls and the "board" of these enviro-eco friendly-smarter then though typically out of staters,then have control over what can and can't be done with these purchases.
Of course they immediately showcase these "protected" pieces on their website and the throngs flock. This is not protecting the land ,but promoting the "great deeds" of the "wonderful" groups,and placing it in jeopardy of overuse and ultimately causing these boards to restrict the traditional use,including hunting,fishing,snowmobiling,ATVing and other outdoor recreational activities.
The paper companies were great stewards of these parcels as they allowed traditional use and understood the local populaces needs and wants.
Well managed private investments as proposed by Plum Creek brings jobs and preserves the land more then the piecemeal splitting and developing that would occur if these tracts were sold to MANY developers. If one thinks that the "bee lady's" purchases does anything to enhance the "northern woods" just ask any of the locals in the area.
12-12-2007, 08:49 AM
1,594 posts, read
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Reputation: 1098
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Northern Maine Land Man
No paper company in Maine owns timber land in Maine any more. Every single mill has sold its land. The last hold-out was Fraser and their land has now been sold. Why would a mill sell its natural resources?
Because the international companies that owned them could make more money for the next quarter's bottom line. Back in the early 1990s the number crunchers and investment advisers told the paper companies -- which by then were no longer owned by Maine-based companies -- that they didn't need to own the land in order to guarantee a supply of pulp. The land was, in a sense, an under-performing asset. The corporations could make more profit selling their land, investing the money in other assets, and buying their pulpwood. This happened all over the country -- it's one reason Plum Creek is one of the largest landowners in the US today.
Maine's business climate, or lack of it, had nothing to do with the decision. I don't disagree with your opinion of it, just that it had an impact on paper company land ownership patterns.
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Most Common Occupations - Installation, maintenance, and repair occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Production, transportation, and material moving occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Production occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Transportation occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Material moving occupations (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutionalized population (%)
People in Group quarters - Correctional institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Federal prisons and detention centers (%)
People in Group quarters - Halfway houses (%)
People in Group quarters - Local jails and other confinement facilities (including police lockups) (%)
People in Group quarters - Military disciplinary barracks (%)
People in Group quarters - State prisons (%)
People in Group quarters - Other types of correctional institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Nursing homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals/wards, hospices, and schools for the handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals/wards and hospices for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospices or homes for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Military hospitals or wards for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Other hospitals or wards for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals or wards for drug/alcohol abuse (%)
People in Group quarters - Mental (Psychiatric) hospitals or wards (%)
People in Group quarters - Schools, hospitals, or wards for the mentally retarded (%)
People in Group quarters - Schools, hospitals, or wards for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutions for the deaf (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutions for the blind (%)
People in Group quarters - Orthopedic wards and institutions for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Wards in general hospitals for patients who have no usual home elsewhere (%)
People in Group quarters - Wards in military hospitals for patients who have no usual home elsewhere (%)
People in Group quarters - Juvenile institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Long-term care (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for abused, dependent, and neglected children (%)
People in Group quarters - Residential treatment centers for emotionally disturbed children (%)
People in Group quarters - Training schools for juvenile delinquents (%)
People in Group quarters - Short-term care, detention or diagnostic centers for delinquent children (%)
People in Group quarters - Type of juvenile institution unknown (%)
People in Group quarters - Noninstitutionalized population (%)
People in Group quarters - College dormitories (includes college quarters off campus) (%)
People in Group quarters - Military quarters (%)
People in Group quarters - On base (%)
People in Group quarters - Barracks, unaccompanied personnel housing (UPH), (Enlisted/Officer), ;and similar group living quarters for military personnel (%)
People in Group quarters - Transient quarters for temporary residents (%)
People in Group quarters - Military ships (%)
People in Group quarters - Group homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes or halfway houses for drug/alcohol abuse (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the mentally ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the mentally retarded (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Other group homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Religious group quarters (%)
People in Group quarters - Dormitories (%)
People in Group quarters - Agriculture workers' dormitories on farms (%)
People in Group quarters - Job Corps and vocational training facilities (%)
People in Group quarters - Other workers' dormitories (%)
People in Group quarters - Crews of maritime vessels (%)
People in Group quarters - Other nonhousehold living situations (%)
People in Group quarters - Other noninstitutional group quarters (%)
Residents speaking English at home (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Foreign born (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Foreign born (%)
Residents speaking other language at home (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Foreign born (%)
Class of Workers - Employee of private company (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed in own incorporated business (%)
Class of Workers - Private not-for-profit wage and salary workers (%)
Class of Workers - Local government workers (%)
Class of Workers - State government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Federal government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed workers in own not incorporated business and Unpaid family workers (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - No fuel used (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - No fuel used (%)
Armed forces status - In Armed Forces (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Veteran (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Nonveteran (%)
Fatal accidents locations in years 2005-2021
Fatal accidents locations in 2005
Fatal accidents locations in 2006
Fatal accidents locations in 2007
Fatal accidents locations in 2008
Fatal accidents locations in 2009
Fatal accidents locations in 2010
Fatal accidents locations in 2011
Fatal accidents locations in 2012
Fatal accidents locations in 2013
Fatal accidents locations in 2014
Fatal accidents locations in 2015
Fatal accidents locations in 2016
Fatal accidents locations in 2017
Fatal accidents locations in 2018
Fatal accidents locations in 2019
Fatal accidents locations in 2020
Fatal accidents locations in 2021
Alcohol use - People drinking some alcohol every month (%)
Alcohol use - People not drinking at all (%)
Alcohol use - Average days/month drinking alcohol
Alcohol use - Average drinks/week
Alcohol use - Average days/year people drink much
Audiometry - Average condition of hearing (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear a whisper from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear normal voice from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - Ears ringing, roaring, buzzing (%)
Audiometry - Had a job exposure to loud noise (%)
Audiometry - Had off-work exposure to loud noise (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high blood pressure (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Checking blood pressure at home (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Frequently checking blood cholesterol (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high cholesterol level (%)
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at supermarket/grocery store
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at other stores
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on eating out
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on carryout/delivered foods
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at supermarket/grocery store (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at other stores (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on eating out (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on carryout/delivered foods (%)
Current Health Status - General health condition (%)
Current Health Status - Blood donors (%)
Current Health Status - Has blood ever tested for HIV virus (%)
Current Health Status - Left-handed people (%)
Dermatology - People using sunscreen (%)
Diabetes - Diabetics (%)
Diabetes - Had a blood test for high blood sugar (%)
Diabetes - People taking insulin (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Diet health (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Milk product consumption (# of products/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals not home prepared (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals from fast food or pizza place (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Ready-to-eat foods (#/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Frozen meals/pizza (#/month)
Drug Use - People that ever used marijuana or hashish (%)
Drug Use - Ever used hard drugs (%)
Drug Use - Ever used any form of cocaine (%)
Drug Use - Ever used heroin (%)
Drug Use - Ever used methamphetamine (%)
Health Insurance - People covered by health insurance (%)
Kidney Conditions-Urology - Avg. # of times urinating at night
Medical Conditions - People with asthma (%)
Medical Conditions - People with anemia (%)
Medical Conditions - People with psoriasis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with overweight (%)
Medical Conditions - Elderly people having difficulties in thinking or remembering (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever received blood transfusion (%)
Medical Conditions - People having trouble seeing even with glass/contacts (%)
Medical Conditions - People with arthritis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with gout (%)
Medical Conditions - People with congestive heart failure (%)
Medical Conditions - People with coronary heart disease (%)
Medical Conditions - People with angina pectoris (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had heart attack (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had stroke (%)
Medical Conditions - People with emphysema (%)
Medical Conditions - People with thyroid problem (%)
Medical Conditions - People with chronic bronchitis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with any liver condition (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had cancer or malignancy (%)
Mental Health - People who have little interest in doing things (%)
Mental Health - People feeling down, depressed, or hopeless (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble sleeping or sleeping too much (%)
Mental Health - People feeling tired or having little energy (%)
Mental Health - People with poor appetite or overeating (%)
Mental Health - People feeling bad about themself (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble concentrating on things (%)
Mental Health - People moving or speaking slowly or too fast (%)
Mental Health - People having thoughts they would be better off dead (%)
Oral Health - Average years since last visit a dentist
Oral Health - People embarrassed because of mouth (%)
Oral Health - People with gum disease (%)
Oral Health - General health of teeth and gums (%)
Oral Health - Average days a week using dental floss/device
Oral Health - Average days a week using mouthwash for dental problem
Oral Health - Average number of teeth
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to control insects (%)
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to kill weeds (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People walking or bicycling (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - Average hours a day doing sedentary activities
Physical Activity - Average hours a day watching TV or videos
Physical Activity - Average hours a day using computer
Physical Functioning - People having limitations keeping them from working (%)
Physical Functioning - People limited in amount of work they can do (%)
Physical Functioning - People that need special equipment to walk (%)
Physical Functioning - People experiencing confusion/memory problems (%)
Physical Functioning - People requiring special healthcare equipment (%)
Prescription Medications - Average number of prescription medicines taking
Preventive Aspirin Use - Adults 40+ taking low-dose aspirin (%)
Reproductive Health - Vaginal deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Cesarean deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Deliveries resulted in a live birth (%)
Reproductive Health - Pregnancies resulted in a delivery (%)
Reproductive Health - Women breastfeeding newborns (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had a hysterectomy (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had both ovaries removed (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever taken birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women taking birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used Depo-Provera or injectables (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used female hormones (%)
Sexual Behavior - People 18+ that ever had sex (vaginal, anal, or oral) (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had anal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had any sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had anal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had any kind of sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first had sex
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female vaginal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a woman (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of woman performed oral sex on in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male anal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a man (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male oral sex partners in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - People using protection when performing oral sex (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of times people have vaginal or anal sex a year
Sexual Behavior - People having sex without condom (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male vaginal sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Circumcised males 18+ (%)
Sleep Disorders - Average hours sleeping at night
Sleep Disorders - People that has trouble sleeping (%)
Smoking-Cigarette Use - People smoking cigarettes (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with smell (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with taste (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had wisdom teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had tonsils teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a loss of consciousness because of a head injury (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a broken nose or other serious injury to face or skull (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had two or more sinus infections (%)
Weight - Average height (inches)
Weight - Average weight (pounds)
Weight - Average BMI
Weight - People that are obese (%)
Weight - People that ever were obese (%)
Weight - People trying to lose weight (%)