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Unread 12-12-2007, 08:02 AM
 
1,472 posts, read 1,955,097 times
Reputation: 920
Quote:
Originally Posted by flycessna View Post
I am not familiar with logging but was curious

how much logging is needed to maintain a status quo with respect to employment in Main?

How much land is needed to support that logging?

I would expect the land to be relogged over and over again.

Wouldn't a large Northern Maine federal park bring in a lot of federal tax dollars?

Would their be room for both?
The vast majority of forestland in Maine has been logged repeatedly, usually on a 50-75 year cycle (except during the salvage harvesting of the spruce-budworm era back in the 1970s and 80s). That's one reason the North Woods are often referred to as an industrial forest. The relatively few acres of old growth forest in Maine are under protection. Even Baxter State Park is not old growth -- Baxter was able to buy the land cheaply in the early 1900s because almost all of it had been recently harvested.

Mainers have long been suspicious of anything proposed or controlled by the federal government. One reason the state created the Allagash Wilderness Waterway was to prevent the feds from turning it into a national park. And given the sprawl and pollution that surrounds the entrances to so many national parks out west, there's not much enthusiasm for that here.

Also, for all practical purposes we already have a park in the North Woods. Look at a map of all the land under conservation easements, state ownership, and NGO ownership or control, and it pretty much covers all the forestland originally proposed for the North Woods National Park. Except that almost all of it is still working forest, which it wouldn't be as part of a park. In a way, we have the best of both worlds already, in a uniquely Maine solution.

IOW, Restore is still pushing the national park in a pro forma sort of way, but the idea is essentially dead. No one outside the small core of true believers is taking it seriously anymore, although it serves as a great boogeyman.

Roxanne Quimby and Restore went their separate ways more than three years ago, BTW. Last I checked, there is no connection between them anymore -- in fact, there is a fair amount of enmity.
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Unread 12-12-2007, 09:42 AM
 
2,282 posts, read 3,567,822 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coaster View Post
Because the international companies that owned them could make more money for the next quarter's bottom line. Back in the early 1990s the number crunchers and investment advisers told the paper companies -- which by then were no longer owned by Maine-based companies -- that they didn't need to own the land in order to guarantee a supply of pulp. The land was, in a sense, an under-performing asset. The corporations could make more profit selling their land, investing the money in other assets, and buying their pulpwood. This happened all over the country -- it's one reason Plum Creek is one of the largest landowners in the US today.

Maine's business climate, or lack of it, had nothing to do with the decision. I don't disagree with your opinion of it, just that it had an impact on paper company land ownership patterns.
When Meade sold their 668,000 acres in Maine and northern New Hampshire, it was shareholders pressure to "invest" the proceeds into a more lucrative venture.
Of this total land ,Meade has reserved approximately 450,000 acres to perform selective harvests for the next 50 years. When this lease is up, so goes the mill. It is a shame to see a centuries old employer throw in the towel but so goes business trends. It will certainly affect the economy in the surrounding towns probably for a long time.
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Unread 12-13-2007, 10:50 PM
 
Location: East Texas, with the Clan of the Cave Bear
1,532 posts, read 2,368,315 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Maine Land Man View Post
The beech came from Holland and the Dutch Elm disease came from there too. If we can cut down the beech trees before they produce nuts and put them into firewood or pulpwood we will improve our forests and let our white birch, yellow birch, ash, cherry and rock maple thrive again.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Beech

Didn't see that in there, can you give a source?

Beech is one of my fav trees and a huge food source down here for wildlife ... especially gray squirrels and wood ducks!
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Unread 12-13-2007, 11:09 PM
 
Location: Florida (SW)
33,484 posts, read 9,951,318 times
Reputation: 43365
One of the memories of my childhood was going out into the forests in the mempha magog lakes region in Quebec to hunt for beech nuts! That was back around 1945 and we lived in the little town North Hatley. If I recall we never really gathered any beech nuts because the squirrels and birds had them pretty much picked over before they ever fell. However the majestic grey muscular trunks of the huge trees and the gold-bronzed color of the leaves and the chatter of squirrels and the scolding of the jays and the quiet presence of my father......ah, special memories. Its funny how all these years later one association can bring it all flooding back.
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Unread 12-14-2007, 05:51 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
32,196 posts, read 24,960,900 times
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Great North Woods of Maine

The controversy over the use of the Great North woods of Maine, NH, VT and NY is another example of a particularly low-key form of class warfare in this country. In the early 1900’s the rich ‘sports” established the Great Camps of the Adirondack Mountains. When they noticed the woods were being industrially logged they used their political power (wealth does buy political power as well as a lot of other things) to convert the area into the Adirondack Preserve to protect their playpen. Later the same class of very wealthy folks developed the concept of National Parks and Wilderness to protect the wondrously scenic areas of the West from development that did not serve their leisure activities and esthetic preferences. This same class, which has regained the concentration of wealth they lost during the depression and New Deal of the 1930’s, is now exercising their ability to regain control of the great recreational areas. The North Woods are one of these.

The fact that working class jobs and industries will be abandoned, along with most of the working towns, is not irrelevant, it is part of the plan to depopulate the area and restore the exclusivity the Leisure Class (Theodore Velben writing in the early 1900’s) requires. Which buying great tracts of land have been devalued by the implementation of land use restrictions resulting from political action, at low prices. These people can then set up a situation where they have the enjoyment of the privacy and only have to share it with the few workers needed to build their camps and serve their needs for food, fuel etc. The fact the woods become effectively depopulated of loggers, farmers and industrial workers is not an undesired consequence but the goal of their long term plan.

I know the concept of “Class Warfare” is difficult for many folks brought up on American egalitarian ideals but that does not mean it does not exist. The best strategy for conquest is to do it without letting the victims ever know they are being attacked. We have already restored the economic concentration of wealth experienced during the “Golden Years” between 1890 and 1926. We should expect the same politics of privilege to be reapplied to our current situation. The working class and small business folks in this country are clearly under attack. We are also loosing.

This is not only happening in the North Woods but in the American Heartland. Describing that would take another longer post and will be left for another day.
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Unread 12-14-2007, 09:13 AM
 
Location: Northern Maine
5,794 posts, read 7,015,755 times
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GregW gets it. During Clinton's Lewinsky War on Serbia to protect the Albanian drug lords we read a lot about ethnic cleansing. At the time I coined the term, 'rural cleansing' because what is happening to us has the same effect on the region as ethnic cleansing does, just fewer bodies. The population is forced to leave.

The Bar Harbor Conference of 1947 resulted in the long term action plan against Northern Maine. The Maine Land Use Act came into effect 25 years later. They are making good progress and are nearly two generations ahead of schedule. They thought it would take a century to reach their goals and it has only been 60 years. No paper mill in Maine owns timberland in Maine today. As the paper mills departed they left behind a scorched earth of easements, codicils and covenants that effectively prevent anybody else from making efficient use of the land.

The thing that surprises me is that so few people care. Just read the web sites of these elitist organizations and their agenda is right there in plain sight. They no longer hide it. They don't have to because they have huge budgets and they are winning.
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Unread 12-14-2007, 05:34 PM
 
Location: Northern Maine
5,794 posts, read 7,015,755 times
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GregW, The guy's name is actually Thorstein Veblen who coined the name "leisure class".
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Unread 12-14-2007, 07:08 PM
 
378 posts, read 689,548 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Maine Land Man View Post
GregW gets it. During Clinton's Lewinsky War on Serbia to protect the Albanian drug lords we read a lot about ethnic cleansing. At the time I coined the term, 'rural cleansing' because what is happening to us has the same effect on the region as ethnic cleansing does, just fewer bodies. The population is forced to leave.

The Bar Harbor Conference of 1947 resulted in the long term action plan against Northern Maine. The Maine Land Use Act came into effect 25 years later. They are making good progress and are nearly two generations ahead of schedule. They thought it would take a century to reach their goals and it has only been 60 years. No paper mill in Maine owns timberland in Maine today. As the paper mills departed they left behind a scorched earth of easements, codicils and covenants that effectively prevent anybody else from making efficient use of the land.

The thing that surprises me is that so few people care. Just read the web sites of these elitist organizations and their agenda is right there in plain sight. They no longer hide it. They don't have to because they have huge budgets and they are winning.

NMLM they're doing the same thing in Florida only here it's obviously Republicans. I don't believe anymore that they are republicans or democrats. They will wear EITHER label as long as they can suck up to the right org. and keep doing exactly what you are saying. Here the Dems are as bad or worse than the Republicans. Obviously, the Republicans here have sold us down the river. Not too many Floridians own waterfront anymore unless they are paying some HUGE association fees. NOt many REAL Floridians can afford to keep their homes or RE-buy a home if they sell their current one. I suspect this is happening in every state. You happen to be expert in Maine and I happen to be expert in FL.

Too bad I don't see more people like ME coming to Florida because when I come to maine I want what's good for MAINE and her people. These people coming to Florida just want to dismember what's left of the old ways.
The saddest thing is that some of the most powerful, pioneer families of florida have either unwittingly or purposely gone along with same ... selling their huge ranches to the state and other things.
I have read about this 'rural' cleansing in allmainematters. It was very troubling to me.
They'll have to pry maine out of my cold dead fingers. I'm happily ceding Florida to them, truth be known. Nothing left here now that the beaches have been taken over by the criminals.

I feel very bad that the people with their long term leases on land in Maine are slowly losing these and are seemingly helpless to do anything.
I do not believe we have to let them win.

MOney buys a lot but it does not buy strong unity from people who are united in their LOVE for a place and a way of life. I learned from a hard look at Dems in FL that they were as complicit as the Republicans whom everyone loved to blame. Not so. It's NOT a party thing. It's a GREED thing.
People need to reach across the aisle and love maine more than they love their politics or the same thing will happen to maine that happened to florida.
I'll be happy to link you up to all the news articles of the folks here who have been SCREWED out of their land by this state. Democrats and Republicans smiling with the knife to the back of the land.
I believe I said I think this is happening in every state.
I've given up on Florida and Maine is my new love. Strong petitioning and active participation by ALL will be necessary for Maine to keep what's MAINE.
Off my soapbox.
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Unread 12-14-2007, 08:03 PM
 
Location: on a dirt road in Waitsfield,Vermont
2,170 posts, read 3,850,418 times
Reputation: 1021
I wouldn't waste too much time worried about North Woods NP. Millinocket is still a very depressed town but I don't think they or most other folks in Maine would be interested in it becoming the next Bar Harbor.

Besides the National Park Service can't even afford to maintain the parks they already oversee let alone adding a North Woods NP to the brood. Even if the parklands are donated it takes millions to construct the infrastructure and then maintain it.
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