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Old 04-21-2008, 06:20 AM
 
411 posts, read 790,556 times
Reputation: 341

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Quote:
Originally Posted by thDishRanAwaywiththespoon View Post
Hard water, also contributes to urinary calculi, it doesn't matter how "natural" you feed your animals urinary calculi will happen with hard water. Fortunately, my Pablo lived two years after that calculi the vet told me to take Pablo to the slaughter house and I told the vet an expletive and irrigated the poor animals urethra but the calculi took him in the end.
And if you'll reread my post you'll see where I said minerals in the water could be a contributing factor. I would imagine that someone who is as aware of their soil content, etc, to grow their animals on little to no grain even in winter would also know the mineral content of their water, and take steps to correct that. Heck, we know we have hard water, we pay attention to that. We have a softener to take care of the issue.

Keep in mind that the MAJOR contributing cause to calculi is indeed the calcium to phosphorus ratio, not minerals in water. The concentration of minerals is much higher in a CONCENTRATED grain than it is in most any private water here in Maine.
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Old 04-21-2008, 06:31 AM
 
411 posts, read 790,556 times
Reputation: 341
Quote:
Originally Posted by thDishRanAwaywiththespoon View Post
If a goat was a wild animal and had not been domesticated, I would say you have a point but these animals have been domesticated-that is like saying people should go back to eating what they ate during cavemen days.
I have to disagree here. Goats are not domesticated creatures at all. A goat, if given no humans to feed them, love them, fence them, etc... would simply go back to being a goat. They'd browse for food, run free, find their own water sources, etc. They would revert to being wild. A domesticated animal however is one that wouldn't be able to provide for themselves if given the chance. Cats and dogs are good examples of this. An indoor cat wouldn't have a great chance at life if it got out and got lost, or it's human put it out. It simply doesn't know how. Yes, maybe it would be okay for awhile, but it's simply not used to hunting, and staying away from predators. They are completely dependent on humans for all needs. Heck, my indoor cat doesn't even know how to pee outside. She used to go out once in awhile on a leash, and she'd cry till we took her inside to the potty.

Dogs are the same way. How many dogs did we see after Katrina who were starving on the streets? Many... and this is because they simply don't know how to make it. Dogs on the streets will beg food from humans in other countries, or take it from trash humans leave behind.

Now I know there are wild dogs and outdoor cats, etc, but they are an exception. Much as there would be exceptions to the rule for goats. Some dogs could indeed go wild, and make it, as some cats could. Then there are those goats who would die if not provided with everything they needed. However, as a whole the species of dogs and cats are domesticated, no one argues that. The species of goats are not however. Seems to me it would be like saying that bear are domesticated because some are kept in captivity and they will eat our trash if access is available. Goats are not domesticated as a species.
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Old 04-21-2008, 07:24 AM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
29,722 posts, read 47,483,706 times
Reputation: 17565
Quote:
Originally Posted by thDishRanAwaywiththespoon View Post
Hay belly refers to the beach ball belly a horse gets from being fed a steady diet of hay poor or good-I use the term on goats too. It's improper but I think feeding animals only hay is like feeding humans only salad. Where's the nutrition??

You don't like horses FB??? The SHAME!
You are talking about a horse issue applying it to goats.

Goats have horns, horses do not.

They are differnt species.
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Old 04-21-2008, 07:26 AM
 
Location: Teton Valley Idaho
7,395 posts, read 11,508,869 times
Reputation: 5403
I'm learning a lot here..... a lot of info backed by science from what I can see!
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Old 04-21-2008, 07:27 AM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
29,722 posts, read 47,483,706 times
Reputation: 17565
Quote:
Originally Posted by KiddinAroundFarm View Post
I have to disagree here. Goats are not domesticated creatures at all. A goat, if given no humans to feed them, love them, fence them, etc... would simply go back to being a goat. They'd browse for food, run free, find their own water sources, etc. They would revert to being wild. A domesticated animal however is one that wouldn't be able to provide for themselves if given the chance. Cats and dogs are good examples of this. An indoor cat wouldn't have a great chance at life if it got out and got lost, or it's human put it out. It simply doesn't know how. Yes, maybe it would be okay for awhile, but it's simply not used to hunting, and staying away from predators. They are completely dependent on humans for all needs. Heck, my indoor cat doesn't even know how to pee outside. She used to go out once in awhile on a leash, and she'd cry till we took her inside to the potty.

Dogs are the same way. How many dogs did we see after Katrina who were starving on the streets? Many... and this is because they simply don't know how to make it. Dogs on the streets will beg food from humans in other countries, or take it from trash humans leave behind.

Now I know there are wild dogs and outdoor cats, etc, but they are an exception. Much as there would be exceptions to the rule for goats. Some dogs could indeed go wild, and make it, as some cats could. Then there are those goats who would die if not provided with everything they needed. However, as a whole the species of dogs and cats are domesticated, no one argues that. The species of goats are not however. Seems to me it would be like saying that bear are domesticated because some are kept in captivity and they will eat our trash if access is available. Goats are not domesticated as a species.
I agree.






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Old 04-21-2008, 07:59 AM
 
3,061 posts, read 7,296,573 times
Reputation: 1889
Quote:
Originally Posted by forest beekeeper View Post
You are talking about a horse issue applying it to goats.

Goats have horns, horses do not.

They are differnt species.
Ayuh, the last time I looked they were definitely different. I've owned both species too.
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Old 04-21-2008, 12:22 PM
 
Location: Maine
5,969 posts, read 11,132,103 times
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I owned a mare that should have had horns. And a pointed tail. We loved her anyway.
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Old 04-21-2008, 01:23 PM
 
Location: Caribou
39 posts, read 90,443 times
Reputation: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by forest beekeeper View Post
You are talking about a horse issue applying it to goats.

Goats have horns, horses do not.

They are differnt species.

The point I am making is feeding a diet of ONLY hay to an animal is unhealthy- horse will get a hay belly as a result from the animals not having adequate nutrition the same goes for a goat. Only feeding your animal hay is not right and not nutritionally adequate. But clearly there is a majority who disagree with me on this issue and the group dynamics are not in my favor. so my final word on the matter is it is best to feed your whethers and bucks ammonium chloride. I took advice from a person who said not to do that and the result was a dead goat and heart break.

Last edited by thDishRanAwaywiththespoon; 04-21-2008 at 02:00 PM..
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Old 04-21-2008, 02:54 PM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
29,722 posts, read 47,483,706 times
Reputation: 17565
Quote:
Originally Posted by thDishRanAwaywiththespoon View Post
The point I am making is feeding a diet of ONLY hay to an animal is unhealthy- horse will get a hay belly as a result from the animals not having adequate nutrition the same goes for a goat. Only feeding your animal hay is not right and not nutritionally adequate. But clearly there is a majority who disagree with me on this issue and the group dynamics are not in my favor. so my final word on the matter is it is best to feed your whethers and bucks ammonium chloride. I took advice from a person who said not to do that and the result was a dead goat and heart break.
Yes I see.

I live in a forest.

In our forest are many deer, moose, beaver, and a few bear. They seem relatively healthy, but do fall subject to occasional lead poisoning. From their healthy and energetic demeanor, their fat stomachs, and large sizes; I would assume that overall these animals are healthy.

On our land, we have goats and chickens. These goats and chickens eat in the forest, as they live in the forest, underneath the forest canopy.

I only give our goats a bit of hay when the snow is so deep that they can not find much else to eat. I give them a bit a grain year around, mostly as a training tool, to remind them where home is, and that I have their feed and I am their friend. I give a herd of goats a cup of grain each day. Clearly not enough grain for them to survive on. To me their purpose is mostly to eat forest; so that I can plant ginseng, or mushrooms, or other forest crops. And these animals seem to serve their purpose nicely.

Goats eat trees, chickens eat goat droppings, and we eat both meat and eggs.

I am not a proponent of feeding forest animals a diet of hay only. Nor am I a proponent of feeding forest animals a diet of grain only.

I like the idea of feeding forest animals, forest. It works for me.

I do give them free access to mineral salt blocks, though I wish that selenium salt blocks were cheaper and more easily available in this area.

I am sorry to hear about your loss. On the positive side though, at least you were able to fill your freezer right? And it is all about keeping the freezer filled.
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Old 04-21-2008, 02:57 PM
 
Location: Caribou
39 posts, read 90,443 times
Reputation: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by forest beekeeper View Post
Yes I see.

I live in a forest.

In our forest are many deer, moose, beaver, and a few bear. They seem relatively healthy, but do fall subject to occasional lead poisoning. From their healthy and energetic demeanor, their fat stomachs, and large sizes; I would assume that overall these animals are healthy.

On our land, we have goats and chickens. These goats and chickens eat in the forest, as they live in the forest, underneath the forest canopy.

I only give our goats a bit of hay when the snow is so deep that they can not find much else to eat. I give them a bit a grain year around, mostly as a training tool, to remind them where home is, and that I have their feed and I am their friend. I give a herd of goats a cup of grain each day. Clearly not enough grain for them to survive on. To me their purpose is mostly to eat forest; so that I can plant ginseng, or mushrooms, or other forest crops. And these animals seem to serve their purpose nicely.

Goats eat trees, chickens eat goat droppings, and we eat both meat and eggs.

I am not a proponent of feeding forest animals a diet of hay only. Nor am I a proponent of feeding forest animals a diet of grain only.

I like the idea of feeding forest animals, forest. It works for me.

I do give them free access to mineral salt blocks, though I wish that selenium salt blocks were cheaper and more easily available in this area.

I am sorry to hear about your loss. On the positive side though, at least you were able to fill your freezer right? And it is all about keeping the freezer filled.
I love free range! My ducks had a ball1 How do you keep the fox at bay?

I eat meat but I could not eat Pablo=(
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