Maybe it's time to Nationalize Oil (Brunswick, Bath: sales, college, prices)

[contented]

Originally Posted by contented

i mention this larger picture only in passing and to provoke discourse, not to take a rigid stand.

back in the day, during the industrial revolution, the wealthy plant/factory owners used to chain our children to the machines and many child labor laws had to be passed to protect our children from them. so now those same owners recognize the errors of their ways and simply do it in a quieter fashion by owning our congress people outright.

Halliburton, BlackWater, NAFTA, outsourcing, this supreme court, the monied interests getting the white house to go to war and neglect roads and bridges and public education.

just because someone was able to prosper enough to buy some or a few pieces of stock and build a little hedge against the inevitable doesn't mean you're not caught up in a larger struggle for survival. this is no reflection on working hard and being prepared and living within ones means. that should always be admired.

and before anyone calls me unpatriotic, i'm the 13th generation in america on my mothers side and 12th on my fathers. my 13th great grandfather was the first governor of the plymouth colony. my fathers forefather was put in the stocks for "picking yea pease on ye sabbath day". i come from a long line of new england swamp yankees and while capital is important at some level, the struggle never ends.

just ask the fishermen on the coast how they feel about big governments notion that "bigger is better" and how the monied interests have their minions in government steadily putting the family fisherman out of business.

in my lifetime, just in the war business (korea, vietnam and iraq), not to mention screwing around in the internal politics of other nations, our government has managed to kill about 95,000 young mostly working class boys "in the defense of freedom". out of that we got a draw and what will be two losses and a lot of grieving families.

i don't have any wise solutions, i'm a minor capitalist myself (land development), and i just see so many telltale signs that the little people in this country are in the direct path of the lava flow called "big capital".

i have a great respect for the collective wisdom of the people of maine. your thoughts?

whew, noisy and off topic...........apologies

[kellysmith]

It seems to me this thread has two issues. Number one is the dependance on petroleum and the lack of interest in developing an alternative. Too many conveniences are built into the oil furnace or gasoline engine. We should be looking at alternatives, but that's not easy. Even this thread makes the reference to Mars Hill and how we should ask "the people of Mars Hill" what they think of windmills. I can report that of the 2000 folks there approximately 1980 are extremely happy with the development. Enough about alternative forms of energy. The other issue in this thread is the manipulation of a fair market. We don't have a fair market when it comes to the oil industry. I'm the biggest capitalist around, but I'm sorry, the oil industry is manipulated. A look at the attempts by non-brand named gas stations in Houlton will point this out. Going back twenty years, I remember Thompson Oil trying to sell gas a few cents cheaper than the name brands. Ken's Store trying that. In both these cases, the name brands dropped their prices lower than what the independents could buy gas for. Didn't take the independents long to figure that one out. Even Porter's Oil who opened the service station in Littleton grew a good business by buying non-brand name gas and selling it for as much as 20 cents per gallon cheaper. When they moved to Littleton, all the stations in Houlton dropped to match their price. A little over a year later, we don't see those discounts any more. I can't say for sure why, but knowing the Porter's I don't think they are part of the collusion, I think they are no longer able to buy non-brand gas at the same percentages. Anyone who has tried has failed. Sell gas at the established price or not, but if you decide not, you won't be able to buy gas to sell. Why does every station in an entire area change it's prices the exact amount to the exact price within 3 hours if there is no collusion? Now for the point of the thread, I'm not sure Nationalization is the answer. But in the past the Gov't has broken up the railroads and even Ma Bell when it was determined they were monopolies. Probably not a good idea to break up the oil industry, but a windfall profit tax is just what the doctor should be ordering. And like I said, I'm a fan of capitalism and not government oversite, but on this issue it's time for a change. Windfall profit taxes would go a long way toward assisting us to develop alternative energies if the Oil companies want to keep gouging. One of the things I'm hearing is lots of folks are getting into debt with every oil dealer in the towns because they own an unpaid bill with one, then go to the next, then the next, etc. I was talking to a guy this morning who has a modest home and he stated his oil bill for last month was $700. Plenty of folks can't handle that! It won't be pretty when the dust settles in a few months.

[K-Luv]

Originally Posted by Bydand

I will be more than glad to haul all my tools to your house to work with a bicycle. Just remember, my bill starts when I leave the shop and ends when I get back. Should only take several days to be able to get the material I need to a job site so I can start, then another couple to get the tools back to the shop. Either that or I could just drive my truck and finish a small job in a few hours.

I just might be willing to pay the extra money if you did. Some may say that anyone willing to haul tools and materials via bicycle may be a little off in the head, but I'd say that person is determined!

To me vehicles serve two purposes: utilitarian and personal want. One actually makes life easier while the other makes life seem useless without. Maybe I am different as even though I do currently own a vehicle (and drive it more then I like) I have managed to only have maybe a solid two years of driving (my own vehicle) over the last ten years. I somehow managed to do everything that most would believe 'required' a vehicle without one, and I managed just fine. Yes, it was a pain in the behind occasionally, and once in a while I did borrow a car (or driver), but I was able to manage. I am not saying that everyone should be like me, but in my mind if I can do it, then others can, too (if they want to). Uh, the outsider that I am.

[Coaster]

Originally Posted by kellysmith

The other issue in this thread is the manipulation of a fair market. We don't have a fair market when it comes to the oil industry. I'm the biggest capitalist around, but I'm sorry, the oil industry is manipulated. A look at the attempts by non-brand named gas stations in Houlton will point this out. Going back twenty years, I remember Thompson Oil trying to sell gas a few cents cheaper than the name brands. Ken's Store trying that. In both these cases, the name brands dropped their prices lower than what the independents could buy gas for.

Kelly, I'm sorry but your examples are proof that there IS a free market, not that gasoline prices are manipulated. When someone comes into a market and provides competition, the other participants in the market react accordingly. It's the same thing Wal-Mart does with clothes and McDonald's does with Happy Meals.

Why does every station in an entire area change it's prices the exact amount to the exact price within 3 hours if there is no collusion?

Again. that's the market at work. No one wants to charge more for their gasoline than the other guys, because then they won't sell any gasoline. In Waldoboro, there are three gas stations on Route 1, and normally they are all within a penny of each other. When the Mobil station is cheaper than the Irving, Irving doesn't sell a lot of gasoline.

Now for the point of the thread, I'm not sure Nationalization is the answer. But in the past the Gov't has broken up the railroads and even Ma Bell when it was determined they were monopolies. Probably not a good idea to break up the oil industry, but a windfall profit tax is just what the doctor should be ordering. And like I said, I'm a fan of capitalism and not government oversite, but on this issue it's time for a change. Windfall profit taxes would go a long way toward assisting us to develop alternative energies if the Oil companies want to keep gouging. One of the things I'm hearing is lots of folks are getting into debt with every oil dealer in the towns because they own an unpaid bill with one, then go to the next, then the next, etc. I was talking to a guy this morning who has a modest home and he stated his oil bill for last month was $700. Plenty of folks can't handle that! It won't be pretty when the dust settles in a few months.

The oil companies get a lot of grief for their profits, and I'm the last person in the world to defend them, but until recently their profit margin was lower than Wal-Mart's. The raw numbers look huge because the companies' revenues are HUGE. As a percentage of revenue, the numbers are far more reasonable, but don't ever expect to see that on the nightly news because it's not dramatic and emotive. We tried a windfall profits tax in the 1970s, and the only thing it did was stifle exploration and research.

And you're absolutely right, heating oil and gasoline prices are driving people deeper and deeper into debt. I saw the exact same thing between 1974 and 1981, although I think the impact is worse now because so many folks are already up to their ears in debt because of the easy money financial policies Greenspan and the Fed encouraged for the past six years. There are no easy answers to that. In the '70s, a lot of people installed wood stoves and tons of insulation. I wouldn't be surprised to see the same thing again, this time without the hope that a change in administrations in Washington will bring oil prices into the basement again. As bad as it is now, I believe it's going to get worse in the future.

[Coaster]

Originally Posted by dmyankee

We here in the US are not allowed to explore the vast offshore potential of the Pacific and Atlantic coasts. A huge field was recently discovered off the coast of South America.

We only import about 15% of our oil from the Middle East. The bulk of it comes from our friends to the north and Mexico.

The South American find was in Brazilian waters -- under 7,000 feet of water and more than a mile of rock and salt dome. The technology to exploit it hasn't even been invented yet, and there's a real question whether the amount of oil recovered, no matter how big the field, will ever justify the amount of money and energy required to pump it out.

In December 07 the top five sources of imported oil were Canada, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, Mexico, and Nigeria. Mexico has dropped from second to fourth in the past year because its main oil field, Canterelle, has peaked and gone into a rapid decline.

[Bydand]

Originally Posted by Coaster

Again. that's the market at work. No one wants to charge more for their gasoline than the other guys, because then they won't sell any gasoline. In Waldoboro, there are three gas stations on Route 1, and normally they are all within a penny of each other. When the Mobil station is cheaper than the Irving, Irving doesn't sell a lot of gasoline.

I cannot answer for the rest of the State, but I can answer this for this area. If a small independent gas station owner chooses to sell below what the "big guys" in the area sell for, he is out of their distribution route and they will only sell to them for what the going street price is. I have heard this conversation/threat before between a small owner and his distributer. EVERY morning the stations around here call the main office of the main distributer up here to see what the price for regular, mid, and premium gas is going to be and if it is going to change, when to change the price. If they sell fuel oil they get the price for the day for that as well. I have seen this in operation and have heard the calls many times while in smaller stations.

This is NOT free market in action, this is collusion and strong arming the small guy who is trying to feed his family.

[Coaster]

So are you saying that Shell, Exxon, and Irving all get their gasoline from the same distributor? That's the only way one source could control all the prices, and the last time I checked, that just wasn't so.

[kellysmith]

Coaster,
I disagree with your assessment of a free market. If every independent dealer that has tried to establish a market share by selling gasoline below the "established price" in an area is basically put out of business by the major brands lowing their price to one lower than the price the independent buys gas for...only to see the price go back to the "established price" once the independent either a)goes out of business or b) learns the lesson to not try and beat the "established price", I might agree. It's happened everytime. Ask the independent that is trying to sell gas at his convenience store. I know one here where I live who took his pumps out because was paying more fees for accepting credit cards than he was making selling $75 in gas...and no, that doesn't show the majors are operating at bear minimuns, it shows they are trying to manipulate the market and drive the independent dealers out of business. The penalty for bucking the system. Go to California and you will see more than one price for gas. In fact you must check to make sure it's not 15 cents cheaper across the street. I would seem Californians are loyal to name brands and will pay the price asked for their choice. New Englanders are frugal. We want the cheapest price it doesn't matter what brand....therefore we have one to choose from...and I still say it's manipulated.

[Maineah]

Originally Posted by Coaster

In the '70s, a lot of people installed wood stoves and tons of insulation. I wouldn't be surprised to see the same thing again, this time without the hope that a change in administrations in Washington will bring oil prices into the basement again. As bad as it is now, I believe it's going to get worse in the future.

We've already decided to put a woodstove in this summer. We took the coal stove out in the early 90's and remodeled the room it was in. Now we're going to have to go back to woodstoves and doorway fans to move the heat around. We're already paying over $3300 a year for oil and they're not going to get $5000 from me!
I'd rather pay for wood than oil. The wood cutter deserves his profits.

[Bydand]

Originally Posted by Coaster

So are you saying that Shell, Exxon, and Irving all get their gasoline from the same distributor? That's the only way one source could control all the prices, and the last time I checked, that just wasn't so.

That isn't what I was saying. What I was said is that the small stations call the main distributor for this area. I should have said "their" distributor. There is only two for the area, they set the price for the area together. That is the meaning of collusion. the rest of it is strong arming the competition.

Don't believe it if you want to, that is your choice. It is the reality of the gas/oil business in this area whether you chose to think so or not.