Passive Solar Heating in Maine? (Long Island: homeowners insurance, live, cost of)

[Acadianlion]

Originally Posted by kellysmith

I believe you will find the cost of ICF substantially more than regular concrete poured walls. I've priced some for a little shanty I'm building and you definitely get a superior foundation, but it comes at a price. From the research I've done, there are lower prices options available over the internet, but the devil is in the details. Fox Blocks are the cheapest I've found, but their shipping made them the most expensive I've found. GreenBuildingTalk - Insulating Concrete Forms (ICF), Structural Insulated Panels (SIP), Radiant Heating, Geothermal Heat Pumps, Solar Power has a forum where one of the topics is ICF. From reading posts by installers throughout the country, it is obvious that quality does matter with the blocks as well. According to that forum there is a lot of junk out there. I'm not in the ICF industry so don't have a dog in the fight, but from what I have gathered LOGIX makes one of the better blocks. As it turns out Rathburn Lumber in Presque Isle is a distributer for LOGIX. They will also rent you the bracing required to install and pour the forms (unless you want to try and cob together something yourself) That might be cheaper, but from what I've determined, it won't be a pretty site when you have a blowout of one of your walls. It seems some blocks are more susceptable to blowouts, some blocks compress more than others during the pour leaving you with walls shorter than planned in some spots. It just seems that you get what you pay for dealing with ICF. I'm sure there are other lumber yards that offer one stop shopping for ICF, but it seems to me it's worth a little extra to have someone to lean on when attempting something such as this. You will also need to rent a pumper for the concrete, and have one for each pour. That will run from $800 on up per pour. If only doing a foundation, it would all be one pour, but once you start researching ICF houses, you will start to think about ICF above ground. I know of one ICF home here in the County and it's so tight, an air ventilation system is part of the requirements because there is just no air infiltration.
Another good web site for topics such as this is Best of Building Science Online Training then click on the "video list"

My initial foray into ICFs was witha product from Arxx Building Forms. At that time their only distributor in Maine was Hammond Lumber, but EBS also became a distributor. At that time in order to do an Arxx system project it was necessary for the contractor to complete an Arxx training program, and they held them throughout the state...one was at the Holiday Inn in Ellsworth, which I attended. The process is remarkably simple, and blow-outs while pouring are easily avoided if the pour is at a slow enough rate and the vibration of the poured concrete is thorough...also, the slump must be correct.

It isn't necessary to use a pump for ICF forms. If the concrete trucks can gain shute access by moving around on the property, no pumping is required. IF trees are maintained around the house, then of course, pumping will be necessary.

There is of course, the issue of cost. The cost of concrete has risen and is rising, and the cost of transporting the forms from factory to job site are considerations. ICF's are actually made from recycled materials, so they are "green" by most standards and they are light and easily handled and assembled. In the end the real question is whether or not this type of wall, with its superior insulation characteristics is justification for whatever cost or other issues their installation presents.

[forest beekeeper]

Originally Posted by Acadianlion

...
When these "blocks" are stacked up they form a wall that is hollow. The webbing has notches molded in to allow for the placement of steel rebar. Once laid out and stacked up, the wall is filled with concrete, and the resulting wall is a monolithic insulated, reinforced concrete wall that has a basic very high "R" factor....MUCH higher than with any other kind of construction on a cost per cubic foot method.

I have seen them marketed at the fair, and at the Veazie concrete plant.

Their sales pitch is impressive.

However when I compared prices, I have issues with the above statement.

It is not the most R-value per sq ft as compared to all other building methods.

Nor is it the cheapest method of getting that R-value.

[Acadianlion]

Originally Posted by forest beekeeper

I have seen them marketed at the fair, and at the Veazie concrete plant.

Their sales pitch is impressive.

However when I compared prices, I have issues with the above statement.

It is not the most R-value per sq ft as compared to all other building methods.

Nor is it the cheapest method of getting that R-value.

When I was doing my planning for a condo project slated to use ICF's exclusively, the arithmetic was that the ICF walls would add approximately 7% to the overall cost of the project.

The end result was a wall that would be virtually soundproof, which was an essential component of the condo units themselves. They would also form a wall with a fire rating that simply is not possible with any other form of conventional construction and the fire rating of the buildings were very near the rating of a fully sprinklered structure. The ICF structure would have been impervious to insect infestations as well.

Now having said all of that, in my own construction planning, I am not entirely sure if I want to use ICF's in my own home to be built next year. I am trying to achieve a near zero carbon foot print, and will make ever effort at using renewable energy for heat and electricty. On paper I would have predicted ten years ago that ICF's would have been my choice of materials for construction. However, with the new spray in insulation and the concept of the "hot roof" method of insulation I am unsure if the added sound resistance of the ICF's will be worth any premium, or if the increasing cost of concrete will make the concept simply too expensive.

Certainly if in the end, we use a Deltec panelized frame to build within, the choice will be made and the structure will be wood frame.

Another issue with ICF's is that most if not all insurance companies will not underwrite them with other than an "actual cash value" method...no replacement cost coverage. This places all of the burden for proper insurance to value on the property owner or the agent if there is one. I personally prefer the inflated value of the dwelling and the guarantee of replacement cost coverage, so an ACV homeowner's policy is another drawback with ICF construction.

But I think that a direct comparison between stick building and ICF's doesn't give a true picture. An ICF wall makes a completely different completed structure than a frame wall, and if the additional seven or even ten percent of construction value (if that is what it still is), is enough to make the ICF unattractive by itself, then the added benefits of ICF construction are out of reach.

[forest beekeeper]

Originally Posted by Acadianlion

... But I think that a direct comparison between stick building and ICF's doesn't give a true picture. An ICF wall makes a completely different completed structure than a frame wall, and if the additional seven or even ten percent of construction value (if that is what it still is), is enough to make the ICF unattractive by itself, then the added benefits of ICF construction are out of reach.

I am not a proponent of wood-stick at all. Which is why our house project is not wood-stick either.

[QuinnsBestDad]

It would seem to me this might be a good path of inquiry:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/27/wo...7house.html?em

[chaosX5]

Originally Posted by QuinnsBestDad

It would seem to me this might be a good path of inquiry:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/27/wo...7house.html?em

Great article! Thanks

[Acadianlion]

Originally Posted by QuinnsBestDad

It would seem to me this might be a good path of inquiry:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/27/wo...7house.html?em

Great article and I ordered the book!

[forest beekeeper]

Originally Posted by QuinnsBestDad

It would seem to me this might be a good path of inquiry:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/27/wo...7house.html?em

The article does not say how they insulated, nor to what R-value.

It is also very contradictory; in that it insists these houses are 'passive' yet they use Thermal-heat exchangers. [The warm air going out passes side by side with clean, cold air coming in, exchanging heat with 90 percent efficiency].

We have looked at heat exchangers, and seeing the '90 percent' brag, I know exactly which model they are using.

We very nearly installed one of those systems ourselves. We decided against it however when we saw how much it costs to run that heat exchanger.

It would very nearly equal our heating bill just to power that beast.


When you require an energy hog like that, to push air around, that is not a 'passive' system.

[woolwiTch]

OP mentioned building a masonry heater. Here's a Mainer who does that:

Maine Wood Heat Co.

Always wished for one, but I don't think it's too feasible to retrofit one into my old place.

[RANGER.101ST]

Originally Posted by Acadianlion

My initial foray into ICFs was witha product from Arxx Building Forms. At that time their only distributor in Maine was Hammond Lumber, but EBS also became a distributor. At that time in order to do an Arxx system project it was necessary for the contractor to complete an Arxx training program, and they held them throughout the state...one was at the Holiday Inn in Ellsworth, which I attended. The process is remarkably simple, and blow-outs while pouring are easily avoided if the pour is at a slow enough rate and the vibration of the poured concrete is thorough...also, the slump must be correct.

It isn't necessary to use a pump for ICF forms. If the concrete trucks can gain shute access by moving around on the property, no pumping is required. IF trees are maintained around the house, then of course, pumping will be necessary.

There is of course, the issue of cost. The cost of concrete has risen and is rising, and the cost of transporting the forms from factory to job site are considerations. ICF's are actually made from recycled materials, so they are "green" by most standards and they are light and easily handled and assembled. In the end the real question is whether or not this type of wall, with its superior insulation characteristics is justification for whatever cost or other issues their installation presents.

my brother is a contractor and all he does is icf he started with blue max then arxx and now for the past 9 years he has been doing nudura.yes you can pore by truck if you can get near the building.but then you cant get a consistent pore.spend the extra 1500-2000 and get a pumper.yes it is more expensive to build but your heating and cooling will be cut allmost in half.