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Old 03-31-2008, 10:02 AM
 
Location: Waldo County
1,220 posts, read 3,916,756 times
Reputation: 1414

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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW View Post
As I was saying in the 1970's during the first oil crisis you should build a simple well-insulated house using extra thick Structural Foam Panels with most of the windows are facing south and east with hot water radiant floors. Heat the floors with a low temp oil fueled water heater and a heat-collecting loop in the fireplace/wood stove. Don’t worry about ‘carbon footprint” and all the other ‘green’ nonsense. Connecting to the grid may not cost too much if you dig the trench. Good luck with this in granite unless you use a rock cutting trenching machine. Find out just how big a trench is required.

Build a medium size efficient house and save all the money and energy required for solar collectors (heat or electricity) to pay for a minimal fuel and electrical use. Add a backup Diesel Generator (check out the Lister CS gensets available from Bangor Diesel) with a way to add the coolant and exhaust heat to your heating system for the times when the grid power will be unavailable. Another source of heat could be a 5 kW windmill connected to the hot water tank.

Like I suggested – don’t sweat the solar part. Just build a properly located super insulated house and live in it.
What are "structural foam panels?
Heat the floors with a low temperature water heater? How does that work? The heat dissipation will require the waterheater to consume how much oil? And at what cost per year? It is this type of consumption that I am going to avoid.

Connecting to the grid isn't an issue cost wise. The cost of the cable and the trench isn't an issue, and with net metering here in Maine, unless the need for power is more than a mile away, a pure "off grid" system cost isn't justified. Buring the cable isn't an issue, and the depth of the trench for a private power line isn't either, I don't think. Of course the cable will need to be in conduit, and stuffing 800 feet of power cable into conduit won't be fun, but it isn't a deal breaker.

"Green nonsense". I love it when people point their noses down at science. I suppose these "values" are also those that won't take aspirin for a headache either.

What's a "medium sized" house? What amount of energy use is an acceptable expense planning into the next two or three decades. That is what I don't know, but the direction that oil, propane, and electricity rates are going indicates that an alternative energy source chosen in new construction in this decade will generate much higher value in the next and beyond it.
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Old 03-31-2008, 11:15 AM
 
7,150 posts, read 10,840,175 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acadianlion View Post
the direction that oil, propane, and electricity rates are going indicates that an alternative energy source chosen in new construction in this decade will generate much higher value in the next and beyond it.
While my own preference for extreme simplicity, and my contentment with far less technology than most folks desire, will allow me to undertake my own version of energy-efficiency with relatively low cost and ease, I also am very certain that Acadianlion's type of project can work and is worthy of the game. The basic leverage comes from starting new, as opposed to remodeling old, and orienting to maximum passive advantage. Then all other systems are able to work at their greatest potential for the goals to be achieved. I assume Acadianlion is taking a lot of passive opportunity into account, as he appears to be making a real in-depth study of all the issues.

I have looked at the same home kits (Deltec) in the past. Too much stuff and too much $$ for me, given that I am a noodler and scrounger. But they're pretty neat. I wonder if you are planning a trombe wall anywhere in your design? Perhaps as a porch buffer to the main walls? Great advantage can be gained and could build one to compliment the octagonal or round plan of the main house.

If the trombe wall concept has not crossed your radar, you can look at the basic definition
Trombe wall - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and anyone interested can Google "trombe wall" and get a lot of hits to surf.
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Old 08-24-2008, 03:33 PM
 
1 posts, read 3,395 times
Reputation: 10
Default GeoThermalHeating

Have you recently installed or have had installed geothermal heat in your house in Maine?
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Old 08-24-2008, 05:10 PM
 
Location: Backwoods of Maine
7,485 posts, read 10,431,469 times
Reputation: 21455
We seemed to have already gone 'round the mulberry bush on this one! No, I haven't tried it, nor do I know anyone who has. The consensus is that it doesn't work too well in Maine. I recall others saying that it was expensive to install, and that some builders are trying it, but the results are mixed.

We'll see if someone else comes in here with a more definitive answer!
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Old 08-25-2008, 06:14 AM
 
Location: Waldo County
1,220 posts, read 3,916,756 times
Reputation: 1414
Well, our process continues, both in terms of generality and terms of specifics. First of all, I have found out that the entire discussion about conservation of resources, and energy efficiency varies tremendously depending on the level of financial sophistication that you are on when you enter the design/build process. It amazes me to see more and more that this "trendy" factor is far more powerful than any of the other concepts here in this country, especially.

There is a large (2500 sq. ft.) Deltec home being built in northeastern Massachusetts that is going to be super energy efficient. It contains all the "bells and whistles" of the modern energy efficient age. And is going to be a super efficient energy hog, because despite the use of geothermal energy to heat the place, and solar array for electricity and an amazing amount of sprayed foam insulation in the truss system, there is NO WAY that this house could support life in winter unless it was connected to the grid. The reason for this is that the geothermal heat pump and air exchangers being built into the house will consume more energy than can be generated by a solar array unless that array will generate around ten kilowatts. Geothermal energy is wonderful and so are super insulated houses, but the downside air exchangers and costs of pumps to run the geothermal system make the cost of solar energy in this market unreasonably high.

The solar house down in the southern part of Maine is a wonderful design/build study constructed a decade ago or so on a "cost no object" basis. The cost of electricity is nil, but the owner can't or won't reveal how much propane his back up system uses. He has 1000 gallons of hot water generated and stored, and the pumping cost of the water is pretty low, but the house is large. My guess is that quite a lot of propane is consumed in this house, built with what now would be called old technology, and expensively at that. The house has a glass roof, and I can't help but wonder what the cost of maintaining that roof is going to be, over time.

And of course I have found out that despite what I thought was very careful planning, we are electricity hogs here in this house. In order for us to live off grid, we will have to undertake a massive retraining effort here, as well as merely SAY that we are going to reduce the amount of electricity that we use. I have assembled a list of the basic appliances that we will be needing in the new house. My goal is to have a total electrical generation capacity of 2-2.5 kw, and preferably closer to the "2" rather than the "2.5". If we have a wind turbine plus solar array we ought to be able to achieve that at relatively manageable initial cost. Since we will have propane ont he property for cooking and clothes drying, I suspect that we will use propane for backup heat.

Because of the solar orientation possible, I really want to have a solar/thermal collector and water storage for heating the slab, and I think that is possible. We will not be building this year, but during the winter I intend to monitor the site more closely to try to see how effective a solar/thermal array would be.

I am also talking to as many "energy experts" as possible, and their numbers are legion. And the cost figures that get thrown around are legion also. It is extremely hard to figure out who knows what about which, as there are so many "expert" opinions available, and from many it is obvious that they are trying to eek out a living on this technological edge. Still and all, since I am an old salesman, I know a pitch from a pitch, and there is a whole lot of pitchin' going on!
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Old 08-25-2008, 06:22 AM
 
Location: Waldo County
1,220 posts, read 3,916,756 times
Reputation: 1414
There are a couple of threads touching on this currently. Geothermal energy is wonderful and works terrifically in Maine depending on the kind of system and where it came from. I have studied this subject for more than ten years now, and it appears to me that the BEST systems come from a company in Pedicodiac, New Brunswick. (Maritime Geothermal).

Now, having said that, there are serious limitations and it is very important to consider not only the cost of the system, and the savings that it will provide in terms of oil or gas not consumed for heat, but the actual cost of operation.

Geothermal heat pumps operate on electricity. Bascially in Maine a our electrical costs are around 15 cents per kilowatt. I was unable to obtain energy consumption estimates for a geothermal system on several occasions, at least from the manufacturers. The best information that I got was that systems used electric motor(s) which would consumer around 14 amps. That power consumption would make a my intended PV system unusable.

The bottom line is that these are systems driven by electricity and although they work well in new construction, the cost of electricity may well make them uneconomical.
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Old 08-25-2008, 07:06 AM
 
109 posts, read 197,410 times
Reputation: 176
I know of a FEW who spent the $20K to $30K to have it installed. Most of them tripled (of more) their electric bill!
The problem I see is that my well is 230 feet deep and the water coming out of my tap is 49 degrees......How is this system supposed to 'heat' my home?
It seems it would be much cheaper to heat with electric baseboard!

Unless you have a geothermal vent near your home.....I wouldn't touch it!
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Old 08-25-2008, 07:17 AM
 
Location: Northern Maine
10,428 posts, read 18,557,799 times
Reputation: 11562
Kudos to MadJack! That's the best, most concise statement on geothermal in Maine I have seen.
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Old 08-25-2008, 07:39 AM
 
Location: Northern Maine
10,428 posts, read 18,557,799 times
Reputation: 11562
Dr. Dick Hill has done a lot of research on heating and insulation in Maine. He and Tom Gocze have a show on Saturday mornings where they puncture over-inflated claims on alternate energy. It's great fun. The absolute best way to reduce heating costs in Maine is to insulate. The more, the better.

You can live off the grid in Arizona with solar alone. You can't in Maine unless you spend way into six figures for your system. It will never pay for itself.
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Old 08-25-2008, 07:58 AM
 
973 posts, read 2,366,102 times
Reputation: 1322
One of the benefits of all the bells and whistles of Geothermal is you can monitor the efficiencies of the system and publish it on the web. Here's a link to some systems. I believe the link is maintained by the manufacturer of the monitoring equipment. I've spoken to the folks at Nordic in NB mentioned in this thread and they have installed over 500 systems in Canada. It would seem there can't be that many foolish people living to our north if the systems didn't work. The one thing the folks at Nordic will tell you is if installed incorrectly, or started up initially incorrectly, you will have a poor working system. If installed right, they say it's the best thing since sliced bread. Look at the following link and check out the one system in Vermont. The electrical usage they show would make most of us envious. Of course like others have said, 20 to 30 grand will get you a working system. Retro-fitting might not be the solution, but a new house looking for a heating system it makes sense to more and more people. Here's the link to the data-loggers.
Web Energy Logger World. (http://welserver.com/ww/ - broken link)
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