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One of the benefits of all the bells and whistles of Geothermal is you can monitor the efficiencies of the system and publish it on the web. Here's a link to some systems. I believe the link is maintained by the manufacturer of the monitoring equipment. I've spoken to the folks at Nordic in NB mentioned in this thread and they have installed over 500 systems in Canada. It would seem there can't be that many foolish people living to our north if the systems didn't work. The one thing the folks at Nordic will tell you is if installed incorrectly, or started up initially incorrectly, you will have a poor working system. If installed right, they say it's the best thing since sliced bread. Look at the following link and check out the one system in Vermont. The electrical usage they show would make most of us envious. Of course like others have said, 20 to 30 grand will get you a working system. Retro-fitting might not be the solution, but a new house looking for a heating system it makes sense to more and more people. Here's the link to the data-loggers.
Web Energy Logger World. (http://welserver.com/ww/ - broken link)
Yes of course. The devil is in the details. If you look at the Maritime Nordic system shown on the link located in far eastern Canada, the model used is a three ton unit, and there are a total of 1800 feet of heat exchanger used...3 600 foot bore holes. Now the fuel oil cost will be zero, and the cost of electricity? Well, I don't know, and nobody seems to want to estimate this. Wild rumors don't make it: the manufacturers probably have the details and with a heat loss computation on the house being constructed, can likely estimate energy consumption.
I think $20-30,000 is pretty high. There is one company that installs and sells Nordic equipment in Maine, and their estimate for a three ton unit was under ten grand, or about the cost of a comparable oil burner. Now add in the additional cost of a chimney and such, and compare that with the cost of drilling bore holes, and you get a good comparison. The geothermal heat pump system will be higher initially, but if fuel oil remains in above $3 per gallon, the actual cost will be drastically different.
The house in Vermont uses is a direct exchange system. This means that the coolant runs down into the heat exchanger drilled into the ground and back. This is the simplest form of exchange method. BUT it is a water to air system, in that the coolant that goes down the hole transfers its heat to air, and the house uses forced air to circulate the warmth. The advantage to thisis that the heat pump can be run in reverse in the summer to cool the house as well as heat it in winter. But using fans to circulate warm air is terribly inefficient and involves (again) electricity taken from the grid.
IF, and it is a large IF, air conditioning the home is an issue in summer, then I think the geothermal approach is probably the most efficient one to accomplish that assuming that adequate electricty is available. Here in Maine the electricity used to run the heat pump qualifies for a lower rate than normal domestic electricty. BUT that same rate does not necessarily apply to the use of electricity for air conditioning. Bangor Hydro's rate advantage for space heating ends in the spring.
So there are basically two questions. The first is whether or not geothermal energy is efficient and can work in Maine, and there is no question but what the answer is a resounding yes, especially since oil is so much higher than ever before. The second question is whether or not geothermal energy is cost effective in terms of system expense (acquisition cost) and efficiency, and that calls into play a lot of other considerations.
Dr. Dick Hill has done a lot of research on heating and insulation in Maine. He and Tom Gocze have a show on Saturday mornings where they puncture over-inflated claims on alternate energy. It's great fun. The absolute best way to reduce heating costs in Maine is to insulate. The more, the better.
You can live off the grid in Arizona with solar alone. You can't in Maine unless you spend way into six figures for your system. It will never pay for itself.
perusing the postings concerning energy I found your posting from 03-30-2008. Found it interesting. Did you finally did the construction as you had planned and if you did how has it paid for you?
Using geothermal in Maine is not impossible however I think it needs to be used with other sources to be really effective. My wife and I are going to try to use solar, wind and geothermal in our house. How succesful we are or not we will find out in the next 2 years. Cost is not the primary issue that we are looking at, it is just a matter of having fun and building our summer home and running it off the grid. What is your opinion?
We went into a series of family emergencies not long after that thread was written, and we are now still in the planning stage for the new home. What I have learned from that post forward is that the real issue is not whether or not geothermal energy can be made to work here, it is at what cost of operation can it be made to work. Our intention is to be completely off grid in the new home. We are planning on a photovoltaic system with battery backup, and probably this in support of a wind turbine. The wind turbine will likely be a more dependable electrical generator due to our location, and we have spent a lot of time trying to analyse our electrical consumption patterns and how we can downsize this particular need. Like all Americans we simply use too much electricity. For those days when neither the wind nor the sun can properly charge the battery pack, I suspect that we will use a propane generator, since we will have propane on the property for surface cooking and clothes drying. Hopefully we won't need a lot of propane generated electricity.
We have had a great deal of time spent trying to decide on the design of the new home. I am a VERY traditional New England type, architecturally, and my wife is an interior architect. Her expertise is designing interiors that work for people in reality. One would think that we ought to be able to design a pretty good house with those interests. What in reality has happened, is that we have had a LOT of fights over how to do whichever and we are little further on now than we were in March.
We have a very interesting site. It lends itself very well to a very conservative New England style home, or to something radically different, such as a round house which she prefers. We have been to the Deltec factory in North Carolina looking at their round home plans and construction methods, and I have found a source for outstanding post and beam barns in kit form. In the end, I suspect that the round house will win, because it lends itself so well to both passive and active solar energy usage, and yields far more useful space for the foot print.
During the course of my research, I have found that the potential for using a geothermal heatpump is possibly limited on our site for a couple of reasons. First of all is the basic cost of operation of a geothermal heatpump. If we indeed need to be chary with the use of electricity, it seems likely that driving the electric motors needed in a heat pump system will simply be out of the question as we may not be able to develop enough energy to power them...at least at any sort of financial load that we could plan to apply.
That leaves us with the potential for a solar thermal system that will generate hot water during the day time, store the hot water, and then use it up at night. But that leads to another question about how and what to do with the hot water system during the summer, and assuming that it continues to operate, how do we dump the hot water. We are not planning on a large swimming pool, but it certainly would be possible with a solar energy collector.
We are trying to plan a trip to Canada to meet with the folks who make the Nordic heat pump systems. With a little luck we might be able to make the trip before Thanksgiving, and after that will have a better idea about the electrical consumption of, say a four ton heat pump. In the end the heat pump will provide not only hot water for heating the slab, but hot water for domestic use (called a "desuperheater") and it may prove cost effective to plan on an additional battery pack or two to be able to utilize geothermal energy for heat and hot water.
My next door neighbor tapped into a massive water source when he had his new well drilled. According to what he told me, the water came up out of the ground without pumping, and the flow rate was up above 40 gallons per minute. Water flow rates like that beg to be used in a heat pump system, and if the pressure out of the ground is sufficient, it will likely reduce the amount of energy consumed just to pump the water up to the heat pump. We'll see.
With the market downturn, and the slackening off of the real estate business, our plans may be put off a while longer. We plan to remain where we are now through the winter, and then to aggressively market our existing home. If we are a bit lucky....I mean, if WE ALL are a bit lucky, and the economy turns a bit sweeter, we could begin construction during next year.
acadianlion you and your wife sound a lot like my wife and I. I am not a true New England type architecturally but rather a log home type. Our lot is pretty good situated to capture the wind and solar energy. My well started flowing once we hit 37 ft and now it is 240 ft down and flowing 37 gpm. We are doing all the work ourselves and I have been waiting 42 years to do this construction.
I like to take the liberty of writing out what our plan is and if you can comment on it we would appreciate it. You seem to have knowledge of this subject matter. This is what we are planing to do:
Our water temp out of the pump is 52deg FH, I keep thinking that if I have a slab on grade that is insulated as close to perfection as possible, prevent as much moisture as I can from wicking (here is where fast foot may help), the slab and fill would have a 48" depth, be poured monolithic, with a run of pipe (just like a radiant heat setup) embedded in the fill, additionally the concrete slab would have its own radiant heat PEX. After a time (long time??) the fill would rise close to the 52deg FH temp and it would start acting like a capacitor where the energy would be stored. Since I only would live in Maine from May-Nov this would keep my house cool. If (and only if) I would stay for the winter then I would have to heat the water with a Polaris water heater. A 170,000+ BTU would be sufficient. Now I am faced with a choice, elec, gas or oil. I choose electric and here is why. I have good wind year round. a windmill electric generator (properly sized) would charge my battery bank, and inverter would give me a good clean sine wave to feed not only the water heater but the rest of the house. I also would install solar panel (only because I enjoy building) and that would additionally provide me with electric. I also would will have a solar heater for water (my own creation and works well) that can preheat (most times) the water. Since we will have a gas cooktop I also would have at my disposal that energy source. There is no good reason why it would not work in my opinion since my log home and the slab would be well insulated and I am using spray insulation in the areas that I can. We built a barn and I had it spray and I can just about heat it with a candle (well no quite of course) but it turned out better than I had projected.
thanks. I am also waiting for the fincial meltdown to ease.
The idea of earth sheltered southern exposure makes sense and appeals to me.
One way to keep heating and cooling costs down is to build a well insulated house. Earth sheltered is thermally very stable and very efficient.
An alternative I'd consider is monolithic domes. Monolithic Dome Institute
These are not only efficiently insulated and near-airtight, but immensely strong and stable structures. And fireproof.
I think I'd build mine with one floor underground and the second floor partially earth sheltered.
Good luck, I'll be watching your progress.
ps, Thanks for the reminder, Greg. Carbon has been around forever. A carbon footprint is in many expert opinions nothing but a new method of shaking down folks.
CO2 is required for life on earth, it is not a damaging gas in the open.
We just discovered its "dangers" two years ago? With a bit more of it, our gardens will grow better and our crops will be healthier.
Carbon is good!
Last edited by Dwatted Wabbit; 10-14-2008 at 11:53 PM..
acadianlion you and your wife sound a lot like my wife and I. I am not a true New England type architecturally but rather a log home type. Our lot is pretty good situated to capture the wind and solar energy. My well started flowing once we hit 37 ft and now it is 240 ft down and flowing 37 gpm. We are doing all the work ourselves and I have been waiting 42 years to do this construction.
I like to take the liberty of writing out what our plan is and if you can comment on it we would appreciate it. You seem to have knowledge of this subject matter. This is what we are planing to do:
Our water temp out of the pump is 52deg FH, I keep thinking that if I have a slab on grade that is insulated as close to perfection as possible, prevent as much moisture as I can from wicking (here is where fast foot may help), the slab and fill would have a 48" depth, be poured monolithic, with a run of pipe (just like a radiant heat setup) embedded in the fill, additionally the concrete slab would have its own radiant heat PEX. After a time (long time??) the fill would rise close to the 52deg FH temp and it would start acting like a capacitor where the energy would be stored. Since I only would live in Maine from May-Nov this would keep my house cool. If (and only if) I would stay for the winter then I would have to heat the water with a Polaris water heater. A 170,000+ BTU would be sufficient. Now I am faced with a choice, elec, gas or oil. I choose electric and here is why. I have good wind year round. a windmill electric generator (properly sized) would charge my battery bank, and inverter would give me a good clean sine wave to feed not only the water heater but the rest of the house. I also would install solar panel (only because I enjoy building) and that would additionally provide me with electric. I also would will have a solar heater for water (my own creation and works well) that can preheat (most times) the water. Since we will have a gas cooktop I also would have at my disposal that energy source. There is no good reason why it would not work in my opinion since my log home and the slab would be well insulated and I am using spray insulation in the areas that I can. We built a barn and I had it spray and I can just about heat it with a candle (well no quite of course) but it turned out better than I had projected.
thanks. I am also waiting for the fincial meltdown to ease.
This is interesting. I knew nothing about Polaris water heaters until you mentioned them, so I went to the web site and read the specifications sheet. My initial thought is that although they use "only" five amps, I am not sure that they would be compatible with a solar or wind energy source, because for heating the heater would likely be working nearly continuously during extreme cold. The refresh rate of the heater itself would determine that, and the drain down of the water heater would depend on the amount of water being circulated through the slab.
I am a bit confused by the description of the slab. As I understand it, you are planning a four foot frost wall, back filled, and then a slab on top of that? That's normal construction, and I would assume that you would build the frostwall, back fill, and then install at least six inches of insulation underneath the slab. Insulating underneath the slab is absolutely mandatory if you are going to heat the slab itself or think you might in the future.
Now that I reread your description, it sounds as though you are going to try to heat the four feet of fill underneath the slab? Of are you intending on having a slab that is four feet thick? My reaction to either of those ideas is that first of all, heating four feet below the living floor of a house will be very difficult and expensive, and if your slab is going to be four feet thick...the cost of concrete will be very high. This part of your description isn't clear to me.
Fast Foot will indeed help to keep out rising damp. I would build the frost wall out of expanded polystyrene building blocks, thus insulating the frost wall also, and I suppose an additional layer of insulation outside of the frost wall wouldn't be a bad idea, although there is a point where you will not get much return for the additional insulation beyond the EPS forms themselves.
Incidentally, on the Fast Foot website there is an interesting link to something new that is being done using fast foot, and that is pouring the footings AND the slab monolithically. I like this idea for a couple of reasons, not the least is that the cost of the concrete construction will be less with trucks making only one trip...especially so, if concrete pumping is necessary.
I don't know enough about thermodynamics to offer an opinion about pumping ground water through the slab to yield cooling in summer. Off the top of my head, I can imagine a cold slab inside the house might help to keep the interior cooler, but might it not work so well if the concrete was covered with additional finish material...carpets, wood or composite flooring, etc?
During all of this thinking portion, I have spoken with a lot of people who know a lot and a little about the subject. Most recently I found a company in Tennessee that sells and installs solar energy systems all over the country and indeed, world wide. They produce a magnificent huge catalog containing all kinds of controllers, inverters, solar panels etc. I spoke with the owner of the company at some length and he said something that is really intersting to me. He said that ANYone with a basic electrical knowledge can install a perfectly appropriate operating solar energy system. He said, "the solar guys out there will tell you that it is all magic, and that only THEY can do it properly. Hog wash! It is no more complicated than any other electrical installation, and any competant electrician can complete the installation." I found that very reassuring, as all I REALLY know about electricity, is that if I mess with it, I will probably get bit. (Fortunately, I do know how to throw the service disconnect!) So your mentioning building your own solar panel installation makes good sense to me...and I assume that you know more about electricity than I do. Anyway, this company in Tennessee sells preassembled solar energy systems and they claim that their instruction manual makes the installation fool proof. The catalog is well worth having.
The company is Ready Made Resources, and you might look at their website.
By the way, one thing that I am starting to build into my planning, is a financial reserve for battery replacement. It seems likely that we will live in this house long enough to replace the entire battery pack at least twice, and that is a hidden cost that must be considered in the basic decision about being off grid.
Certainly your log home will achieve a high "R" Value, and the spray insulation should make the roof tight as well. Insulation is a key to any heated space. When I built my current house I made the decision at that time (12 years ago), to build conventionally...2X6 framing, and I installed all the insulation bats myself, VERY carefully. The house was designed around using three kerosene heaters. Currently we have two Toyotomi units, one is 24,000 btu and one in my study is 8,000 btu, and one rebuilt Monitor 24,000 btu unit in the north wall of the Atrium which is a large two story entry way where the second floor stair case is. In that ceiling is a fan that helps to circulate the rising warm air throughout the upper floor. The system works well so long as doors are kept open to individual rooms. The house is around 1500 square feet on two floors, and we use less than 500 gallons of kerosene per year depending on how strong the wind off the water is during extreme cold.
The house is built on a slab that is NOTinsulated, nor is the frost wall insulated....again, a decision made more than a decade ago and based mostly on the construction cost. Once the slab was poured, 2X4 sleepers were installed flat over a vapor barrier. Then between the 2X4 sleepers rigid insulation was installed below the subfloor. The floor isn't cold in the winter, but my wife doesn't feel it is warm either. I can walk on the floor in my bare feet in the winter and not notice whether it is cold or hot, but then, I am not terribly bothered by the cold at all. Go figure.
Last year I built an addition onto my parents home. The addition was to the first floor of their antique farm house, and was intended to enable them to live on grade level as they grew older and needed more help. The addition included a very large (handicap accessible) bathroom, large closet and large bedroom. Unlike the rest of the house, it was built on an insulated slab and frost wall, heated by taking a loop off the existing oil furnace. The contractor did an outstanding job, and the result was a very warm comfortable bedroom. What I learned from observing the installation of the heating system in the slab was that the water temperature to heat the slab was critical to keeping the slab warm, and the temp management was much different than with conventional radiators. As I recall the water temperture through the slab to heat the room properly, had to be fairly high, also.
This is interesting. I knew nothing about Polaris water heaters until you mentioned them, so I went to the web site and read the specifications sheet. My initial thought is that although they use "only" five amps, I am not sure that they would be compatible with a solar or wind energy source, because for heating the heater would likely be working nearly continuously during extreme cold. The refresh rate of the heater itself would determine that, and the drain down of the water heater would depend on the amount of water being circulated through the slab.
I am a bit confused by the description of the slab. As I understand it, you are planning a four foot frost wall, back filled, and then a slab on top of that? That's normal construction, and I would assume that you would build the frostwall, back fill, and then install at least six inches of insulation underneath the slab. Insulating underneath the slab is absolutely mandatory if you are going to heat the slab itself or think you might in the future.
Now that I reread your description, it sounds as though you are going to try to heat the four feet of fill underneath the slab? Of are you intending on having a slab that is four feet thick? My reaction to either of those ideas is that first of all, heating four feet below the living floor of a house will be very difficult and expensive, and if your slab is going to be four feet thick...the cost of concrete will be very high. This part of your description isn't clear to me.
Fast Foot will indeed help to keep out rising damp. I would build the frost wall out of expanded polystyrene building blocks, thus insulating the frost wall also, and I suppose an additional layer of insulation outside of the frost wall wouldn't be a bad idea, although there is a point where you will not get much return for the additional insulation beyond the EPS forms themselves.
Incidentally, on the Fast Foot website there is an interesting link to something new that is being done using fast foot, and that is pouring the footings AND the slab monolithically. I like this idea for a couple of reasons, not the least is that the cost of the concrete construction will be less with trucks making only one trip...especially so, if concrete pumping is necessary.
I don't know enough about thermodynamics to offer an opinion about pumping ground water through the slab to yield cooling in summer. Off the top of my head, I can imagine a cold slab inside the house might help to keep the interior cooler, but might it not work so well if the concrete was covered with additional finish material...carpets, wood or composite flooring, etc?
During all of this thinking portion, I have spoken with a lot of people who know a lot and a little about the subject. Most recently I found a company in Tennessee that sells and installs solar energy systems all over the country and indeed, world wide. They produce a magnificent huge catalog containing all kinds of controllers, inverters, solar panels etc. I spoke with the owner of the company at some length and he said something that is really intersting to me. He said that ANYone with a basic electrical knowledge can install a perfectly appropriate operating solar energy system. He said, "the solar guys out there will tell you that it is all magic, and that only THEY can do it properly. Hog wash! It is no more complicated than any other electrical installation, and any competant electrician can complete the installation." I found that very reassuring, as all I REALLY know about electricity, is that if I mess with it, I will probably get bit. (Fortunately, I do know how to throw the service disconnect!) So your mentioning building your own solar panel installation makes good sense to me...and I assume that you know more about electricity than I do. Anyway, this company in Tennessee sells preassembled solar energy systems and they claim that their instruction manual makes the installation fool proof. The catalog is well worth having.
The company is Ready Made Resources, and you might look at their website.
By the way, one thing that I am starting to build into my planning, is a financial reserve for battery replacement. It seems likely that we will live in this house long enough to replace the entire battery pack at least twice, and that is a hidden cost that must be considered in the basic decision about being off grid.
Certainly your log home will achieve a high "R" Value, and the spray insulation should make the roof tight as well. Insulation is a key to any heated space. When I built my current house I made the decision at that time (12 years ago), to build conventionally...2X6 framing, and I installed all the insulation bats myself, VERY carefully. The house was designed around using three kerosene heaters. Currently we have two Toyotomi units, one is 24,000 btu and one in my study is 8,000 btu, and one rebuilt Monitor 24,000 btu unit in the north wall of the Atrium which is a large two story entry way where the second floor stair case is. In that ceiling is a fan that helps to circulate the rising warm air throughout the upper floor. The system works well so long as doors are kept open to individual rooms. The house is around 1500 square feet on two floors, and we use less than 500 gallons of kerosene per year depending on how strong the wind off the water is during extreme cold.
The house is built on a slab that is NOTinsulated, nor is the frost wall insulated....again, a decision made more than a decade ago and based mostly on the construction cost. Once the slab was poured, 2X4 sleepers were installed flat over a vapor barrier. Then between the 2X4 sleepers rigid insulation was installed below the subfloor. The floor isn't cold in the winter, but my wife doesn't feel it is warm either. I can walk on the floor in my bare feet in the winter and not notice whether it is cold or hot, but then, I am not terribly bothered by the cold at all. Go figure.
Last year I built an addition onto my parents home. The addition was to the first floor of their antique farm house, and was intended to enable them to live on grade level as they grew older and needed more help. The addition included a very large (handicap accessible) bathroom, large closet and large bedroom. Unlike the rest of the house, it was built on an insulated slab and frost wall, heated by taking a loop off the existing oil furnace. The contractor did an outstanding job, and the result was a very warm comfortable bedroom. What I learned from observing the installation of the heating system in the slab was that the water temperature to heat the slab was critical to keeping the slab warm, and the temp management was much different than with conventional radiators. As I recall the water temperture through the slab to heat the room properly, had to be fairly high, also.
Good morning and thanks for your input and comments. Polaris water heaters are highly efficient units and when you look at the cost not to bad. They can be/are used in radiant heat systems and of course here is where the laws of physics come into play. The properly insulated/built concrete slab does not need high water temperatures to heat, if you want to have a 75deg house temp you would (theoretically) not need a water temp higher than 75deg but we know that is not case because you would have to add the normal heat loss into the equation. Just for example we may need the water to be heated to 90deg instead of 75deg so here goes the thought: my well water is 52deg and I use that water to heat the fill to 52deg (insulated properly) then once the whole foundation is up to 52deg I bring the water it into a regular water heater which will then raise the temp to 90deg +- 2deg then the water would proceed to the Polaris who is sitting there waiting to work. as long as the input water is 90deg the polaris does nothing but if becuase of normal heat losses it drops then it would fire up using propane (very high in BTU's which is what we buy anyway) and would raise the temp to what the thermostat would be calling for. In a radiant heating system the structure is what is heated not the air and there is temp data out there that shows how the curve looks from the floor up to about 6-7 feet. The air is warmed by "radiant" heat of the structure that is why if you have a heated garage and open the door even if it is 40 below outside when you close the door again the temp essentially remains pretty constant and that is because of all the energy stored in the structure.
The windmill and solar systems can produce enough electrity to power a water heater and a house so if that holds to be true our cost is limited to the depreciated value of the equipment (you already addressed that issue) a windmill and solar panels will outlast me but not the batteries (hopefully). I worked for the Bell system and was fortunate to be trained on designing, maintenace and installation of battery banks. The telephone company central offices were/are run with batteries (big 2 volt batteries) and we ran the whole building with them and if commercial power went down we had a 6 hour supply before we went dead (of course I could extend the time by shutting down non essentials).
And yes I am using ICF's (ARXX) to build the frost wall and the slab on top will have underneath 4 ft of fill of 12minus rocks, then filled with sand and compacted all on top of a 6in insulation with a vapor barrier, in other words the foundation would totally enclosed in a membrane to slow down the dreaded (damp). There has been a buzz in my head lately about using TYVEK as my vapor barrier and it seems that FastFoot may be similar material (???). I am a firm believer in monolithic pours, they provide a lot of benefits.
I made a living with my brain but have the heart of laborer, I just love working with my hands so I bought myself some land, a backhoe, bulldozer and I am having the time of my life. We are located in Easton Maine and have always believed that we as humans can do everything if we want to except waking the dead. I am a prime example of somebody who knew nothing about construction and I am doing it for the last 3years.
If you would like to pop an email to me (pachiluro@yahoo.com) I could share/exchange some drawings/pictures with you and who knows maybe we could become friends.
I will take a look at Ready Made Resources site. Thanks!!
Here is the URL of a site that you may find interesting: socket systems - home, I used their product to build my gramble barn (wife and I in 21 days). A very interesting concept and great people (Roger). It seems to me that a house can also be built.
acadialion I also forgot to anwer your question about how I ended with 16 batteries for the off grid setup.
I figure I will need about 6KWH per day (no a/c etc) 120 & 240V, 2 3000watt inverters, 16 6v industrial batteries (about 740ahr/at 48volts), a 1020watt array of solar panels with about 15a of charging current plus all the associated materials. Since I am cautious I will have a standby generator of 5kw (propane).
This should produce this amount of energy in about 6 hrs of sunlight (i wish) and if my windmill also is working they both should take care of all my needs and more.
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