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Old 03-30-2008, 07:59 AM
 
Location: Waldo County
1,220 posts, read 3,915,702 times
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We will be moving from ancestral lands to a new area soon. Our desire is to build a new home that will approach if not exceed a "zero carbon footprint". Our intention is to burn NO fossil fuels and to generate as much of our own electricity as is possible on a grid tied system. The driving theory is for a stable utility cost over the rest of our lives. I intend this to be my last building project.

The center piece of my planning for the past twelve years has been to use a geothermal heatpump. The land that we own could well be ideal for geothermal heat pump use provided that either an open loop or closed loop system was used. The land is very irregular and ledgie, so a direct exchange system in which the exchange loops are buried below the surface probably isn't possible. The open loop system would require at least two wells, and water would be pumped from one, through the heat pump system, and into the other. The closed loop system would require one very deep well, with a polycarbonate, u-shaped pipe dropped down, and then an antifreeze solution circulated down to the bottom and up again, and through a heat exchanger in the house. There is a company in New Brunswick that has a cold climate heat pump system that they have been making for two and a half decades and it is that system that I have felt would be most appropriate.

Unhappily, I think we are moving away from geothermal energy. The reason is that our desire is to achieve as little electrical consumption as possible, and the pumping costs of a geothermal system make it basically incompatible with a solar array for electricity generation. Thus it seems that with the 14 amp motor that drives the geothermal heat pump, plus the well and transfer pumping needed in a geothermal heat pump that we would not be able to gain control over electricity costs, which is a very important consideration for us as we continue to age.

So, now it looks as though we will be designing and building a solar heat exchanger that will enable us to heat and store enough hot water to heat the floors of the house. The contractor with whom we are starting to work claims that we should be able to provide at least 75% of our heat this way.

We will plan to have a large granite hearth and wall inside the house, and most likely will have a wood burning appliance....large wood stove most likely, that will furnish the remainder of the heat needed in the mostly open, solar oriented design.

Still it makes me a bit sad, and I can't help but think if Maine's public utility commission had actually done its job, and not dabbled in the mythical area of "deregulation" electricty would be less expensive in Maine than it is. More than 1/2 the cost of a kilowatt hour of electricty anywhere in Maine is the cost of transmission of the power, and that isn't going to change regardless of where the power is generated.
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Old 03-30-2008, 08:21 AM
 
Location: Northern Maine
10,428 posts, read 18,550,074 times
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You have a good realistic plan. Geothermal is impractical in Maine. A highly efficient method of utilizing thermal mass is to super-insulate the outside walls of your foundation and slab. There is a foam outlet in Winterport that sells foam panel seconds. It can be very economical long term to insulate the outside of your foundation.

Another approach gaining popularity is the ICF principle or insulated concrete form. The forms stay in place permanently and the surfaces are 2 inches of foam, inside and out. My neighbor says he could "heat his house with a candle."

When it comes to heat, wood is good.
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Old 03-30-2008, 08:44 AM
 
7,150 posts, read 10,833,676 times
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Acadianlion ... as I have loitered on the Maine Forum for the past few weeks, I have enjoyed your posts. As I read your first paragraph in this new thread, however, I thought, 'whooops!' Then you got to the part where you said you have realized geothermal is not fitting the model you had in mind — most specifically due to electricity cost. OK. Now you're batting 1000 again with me Sad conclusion, but true.

ICF's do work nicely, as NMLM suggests. Not a budget-priced way to go but they contribute nicely to energy savings over time. Solar collecting in Maine should be quite a reasonable option to consider. You have a very good sunshine hours rating in winter — for a far northern climate zone, that is.

It's a fascinating game and conundrum, energy planning. Good luck with your new challenge!

Assuming I make the move to Maine, I will have an eye out for property with sufficient hill, oriented to south, for a daylight basement. I will skip the top floor . Joke aside, I am hoping to find a site allowing a fully earth-bermed home with open face in glass to south — for sun, energy and view to property. Earth-sheltered homes are interesting to most people but not appealing to them often to live in themselves ... there is too much tradition in most folks' bones. As I have a number of city friends who refer to my forest lifestyle as "neanderthal", cave-dwelling suits me
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Old 03-30-2008, 08:52 AM
 
Location: Waldo County
1,220 posts, read 3,915,702 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
Acadianlion ... as I have loitered on the Maine Forum for the past few weeks, I have enjoyed your posts. As I read your first paragraph in this new thread, however, I thought, 'whooops!' Then you got to the part where you said you have realized geothermal is not fitting the model you had in mind — most specifically due to electricity cost. OK. Now you're batting 1000 again with me Sad conclusion, but true.

ICF's do work nicely, as NMLM suggests. Not a budget-priced way to go but they contribute nicely to energy savings over time. Solar collecting in Maine should be quite a reasonable option to consider. You have a very good sunshine hours rating in winter — for a far northern climate zone, that is.

It's a fascinating game and conundrum, energy planning. Good luck with your new challenge!

Assuming I make the move to Maine, I will have an eye out for property with sufficient hill, oriented to south, for a daylight basement. I will skip the top floor . Joke aside, I am hoping to find a site allowing a fully earth-bermed home with open face in glass to south — for sun, energy and view to property. Earth-sheltered homes are interesting to most people but not appealing to them often to live in themselves ... there is too much tradition in most folks' bones. As I have a number of city friends who refer to my forest lifestyle as "neanderthal", cave-dwelling suits me
You might go to Maine Solar House for a "cost no object" approach to solar power and solar heat. It's a wonderful example of what can be done with solar power in Maine...albeit south western Maine. The house was designed and built more than a decade ago, and was built without regard to cost quite obviously. The owner also uses propane as a backup energy source for heat, cooking and clothes drying. His highest heating bill last year was $220 per month, so his true cost of heat is actually much higher than the hype will indicate. Still heating this quite large house (for Maine), is still remarkably less than if it were heated by burning the Arab's oil.
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Old 03-30-2008, 10:10 AM
 
7,150 posts, read 10,833,676 times
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Originally Posted by Acadianlion View Post
You might go to Maine Solar House ... his true cost of heat is actually much higher than the hype will indicate. Still heating this quite large house (for Maine), is still remarkably less than if it were heated by burning the Arab's oil.
Thanks for the referral ... as it happens, I surfed into that site a few weeks back. Interesting for sure.

"Heating this quite large house ... " offers insight to the first rule in energy efficiency: Small Space. If you can be happy with less than the American dream has evolved to be, you can get down as far as "heating with a candle". McMansions need not apply.

I am an oddity, but I can be perfectly happy living in my mini-van, I need so little ... I do it for stretches of time on 'wanders', as when I did the 9,000 mile cross-country trek a year ago that took me back to Maine. And, of course, I am a boater and love life aboard the little tubs. Lived aboard an old, small boat in Hawaii for a time. Wife, however, needs more space than me ... we are in 1000 sq. ft. now ... Expect to downsize in Maine to about 500' - 600'. Will take advantage of the sun. Got none in winter here, at all.
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Old 03-30-2008, 10:36 AM
 
Location: South Portland, Maine
2,356 posts, read 5,691,513 times
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Just out of curiosity....apples to apples.........how much more can one expect to build a home like this compared to a traditional "on the grid" home......%percentage wise that is assuming your building the same size and style home.


ALSO....I was having a little difficulty following you since I am still learning about the subject....What is going to be your primary source of electricity?
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Old 03-30-2008, 10:50 AM
 
Location: Chaos Central
1,122 posts, read 4,093,784 times
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Very interesting that you post this now.
We went to the Maine Home Show at USM yesterday and had some real interesting talks with people from "green" building companies, as well solar, geothermal, and energy audit companies, and folks from local energy companies who had displays of alternative energy choices. Of course you find that people who sell one alternative tend to downplay the advantages of another alternative

We talked with the energy audit people who were working with a super-insulated company to build a custom home with as close to zero carbon footprint as possible. They claimed that, using all the available technology, they could not achieve absolute zero carbon footprint in the house due to Maine being a heating climate.

I have the "green" building company brochure right here.
FWIW, their list of building supplies is as follow:

- 30/80 ThermomaxSolar system (Mazdon 30VM Manifold Set, 30 Thermomax evacuated tubes, solar circulation unit, expansion tank hose kit, copper fittings, 80-gallon single coil electric backup, 7 gallon solar expansion tank insulated pipes, etc. (my "etc", their list is longer). State energy rebate applies. 5-year unlimited warranty + 5 year additional pro-rated warranty. DM me if you want the name of the company FMI.
- Baxi heating system
- Venmar air exchanger
- flat panel high-efficiency radiators
- radiant heat in walkout basement floor
- lowe glass energy-star rated windows
- ICF (insulated concrrete foundation) system rating R-45 in external shell, R-50 in the attic, 11" thick exterior walls

Looking forward to hearing what you find and decide to do with your home!
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Old 03-30-2008, 11:13 AM
 
7,150 posts, read 10,833,676 times
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Originally Posted by flycessna View Post
Just out of curiosity....apples to apples.........how much more can one expect to build a home like this compared to a traditional "on the grid" home......%percentage wise that is assuming your building the same size and style home.


ALSO....I was having a little difficulty following you since I am still learning about the subject....What is going to be your primary source of electricity?
You are probably addressing these questions to Acadianlion? I'll throw in my .02 cents anyway, which may be worth at least a penny.

Costs depend on personal resourcefulness, naturally. But, in general, any home Can be solar powered — IF you have enough money to throw at it. Solar panels for generating electricty are coming down in price and up inefficiency, however, they ain't cheap (!) If you try to power your lifestyle with solar panels in order to maintain a "traditional" American lifestyle, it's gonna be complex and expensive and you'd have to calculate the Return On Investment over considerable time.

If you are open to designing Non-traditionally, and specifically oriented to the sun's energy, and you are a tinkerer by nature, and a scrounger — then, even in cold Maine, you can build and benefit quite cheaply from the start. The education required is a self-education odyssey ... Fun! The execution, for a tinkerer is all the hobby you'll need to keep you out of the bars at night

My most recent house building project was a 570', + porch, cottage for one son in my back woods. We don't have good sun, as mentioned previously, so this was not a solar project. But I mention because my son now has a solid, attractive, efficient small home with full services, bath, kitchen (including 16' of granite countertops), laminate flooring, all heating, fixtures and appliances included for an out of pocket construction cost of approximately $15,000. I scrounge. All thermopane windows and doors (LOTS of windows and including french doors) for $500. Granite counters free. Kitchen cabinets for $350. OSB sheeting for $5 a sheet from a mill-start run. Roofing for $350 (all the same color!) from an over order. Etc.

You can build solar collectors and storage from "stuff" found in a variety of places. If you follow the plans and use the materials and products developed and sold by new "green" companies, it's gonna cost plenty.

LOTS and lots of great information on solar experiments and homes all over the net. Enjoy
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Old 03-30-2008, 11:19 AM
 
Location: Waldo County
1,220 posts, read 3,915,702 times
Reputation: 1414
Quote:
Originally Posted by flycessna View Post
Just out of curiosity....apples to apples.........how much more can one expect to build a home like this compared to a traditional "on the grid" home......%percentage wise that is assuming your building the same size and style home.


ALSO....I was having a little difficulty following you since I am still learning about the subject....What is going to be your primary source of electricity?
In answer to your first question, I haven't a clue. One reason for this is that the new home is going to be very different from a "traditional" style of home. We have a place on the property that is a granite hump which is about two acres in size and the house will be placed on the granite on the northeast corner. The house will be round and built from a series of factory constructed 8' panels. Everything will be joined together by a trussed roof built in the same factory. (Eco Friendly Round House, Circular Homes, and Dome Homes).

We will probably use sprayed foam insulation and right now, it appears as though we will have a "hot attic", with the entire living space heated.

Most probably the surface will be prepared by removing loose granite from the surface by excavator with a hammer, and then putting in a footing using a flexible footing material and construction method called "Fast Foot" from Fabform Industries. This will make an ideal footing for ICF's for the actual foundation, which in our case will probably be only one layer high.

Inside of the foundation will be a layer of chrushed stone, and then at least six inches of rigid insulation. The hydronic heating will be laid on this, and then the concrete floor will be poured. Naturally alll the electrical and plumbing stubouts will have to laid first.

What's the cost of doing all of this? As I said, I dunno. But most likely the excavation, foundation and concrete work will be less than if we dug a conventional cellar for the same floor space size, set conventional forms, and then had to insulate the inside and outside of the house. Although the foundation of the house will require steel, it won't require the reinforcement that a conventional cellar wall will require. The layout of the round house will be different, but not really exotic.

Right now the house will have a connector leading from it to a barn, also built from a kit, and in the barn will be vehicle and utlity storage, and if the barn is sited where I want it to be, there will be a partial basement in the barn that will house water storage tanks for the heating system. That part is still to be determined, as the lot is heavily treed and until we can get a therapeutic harvest done on the lot, and until the winter releases its grip, detailed planing and site surveying can't be completed.

The pv system is intended to be our primary source of electricity. The goal is to carefully define what we will need for electric appliances and design the pv array to power the electric load. The house is going to be designed and sited entirely around gaining maximum use of passive solar gain for interior lighting, and we will be using solar tubes for that purposes as much as possible, and probably post the house 9' for larger solar gaining windows for winter purposes.

At night of course, we will be spinning the meter forward as we draw off the grid, and it is hoped that our overall consumption of electricity on an annual basis will nearly equal our generation capacity. We are still working out the consumption part of the equation. It is a tough balancing act since so many of the appliances that are considered "normal" for a modern home consume electricity all the time, whether on or off. We will need to retrain outselves, and it will be difficult. But the TV, stereo equipment, computers, clocks...even the automatic washer will need to be switched off when not in immediate use, and I doubt that it will be other than a major struggle.

I would like to reach an intended goal of 3kw for the pv array, although right now in this house we would require over 4kw of generation because to my great surprise we use a huge amount of electricity just because of the way the house was designed to operate. We have three "monitor" type heating systems here, a sewer and well pump, two refrigerators and one expensive little electric space heater in the bathroom that is maintained soley for my wife's comfort. The electric usage here is out of control, but part of that is simply due to the design parameters of this house.

One concern that I have is the installtion of the road and the resulting power line construction which is going to be a considerable cost. I want the power lines to be underground, but that may well be unrealistic. We'll see.

I don't expect to achieve anything that is identifiable as "pay back" in this configuration. I want to be able to build the house entirely out of cash, and then not have my electric and heating bills continue to rocket upward driven by what is an insane lack of national energy policy and dependence on foreign oil. At 3kw or so, I expect to spend around $50,000 for the electrical generating, power line and possibly including the solar heating system, and perhaps a bit more. It is going to be tough to do, but until I get right down to all the details of the project indicating that I can't reasonably do it, and still maintain sufficient resources to live, we are pushing forward in the planning stages.

We went to North Carolina to see the Deltec models and factory earlier this month. At the seminar we saw considerable information about the construction of the homes from an energy conservation standpoint, so that much is done. As a very traditional New Englander from an architectural standpoint, building a round house is very alien to me. However the site is unique and the times are vastly different economically and environmentally than they were in 1700. I am learning new things, and in many ways, the challenge of doing this well is intriguing. Who said an old dog can't learn new tricks?
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Old 03-30-2008, 11:59 AM
 
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Sounds like a great project Acadianlion. Old dogs learn just fine

You seem to be really going for a pretty near first-class installation. Will be very interested to hear how it comes together and what efficiencies you realize. Too much $$ for me to be similarly aggressive. But my elec. consumption is really low so easy for me to play.

I have been converting one of my boats to electric drive ... it's an old St. Pierre dory and I got fed up with infernal combustion and tore the diesel out. Generating charge for the battery banks by solar panels is of next to no value. Neither is wind. Together they make a dent. But I'm still tied to the extension cord at the dock and to a gas generator. Fun though
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