School Consolidation (Brunswick: city hall, how much, homes)

[amacop]

Originally Posted by MRVphotog

I find the constant derogatory statements aimed at the southern part of Maine really bothersome. It seems to be aimed in one direction. I don't find posts with these kinds of comments to be very credible and emminate from some sort of jealosy or insecurity.

There are plenty of folks in southern Maine whose family have been Mainers for many generations, Perhaps you weren't aware of that.

OK MRVphotog you may find these feelings really bothersome and that thay come from jealosy or insecurity but lets face facts Aroostock and Washington Counties have no power in Augusta as does the southern part of the state. If you live in either of these counties you live a different way of life as do folks to the south and have very different values. We in these counties are tired of "It works in the southern part of the state so it must work here too" this is very far from the truth as schools in Portland, Bangor, Augusta and other cities and towns to the south do not have to change a thing nor do their children need to face long bus rides to and from school and as for taxe increases they will not be faced with any major hike as those of us in these northern and eastern counties. So yes you may have been born in Maine and lived here all your life but your values are very different from ours and as I stated the Southern part has the wealth and the power so they dictate to us up north here what is good for us no matter how we feel about it and that is where the theory or should I say fact comes in to play is that there are two very distinct Maines and they just do not work well together.
Lets face it how would folks in the south feel if Aroostock and Washington county controlled the state and told you folks how you would live and that your taxes had to be increased to meet our demands and to support our residents that could not pay for heat this winter and food and medical because the only place to work in town shut down due to high fuel costs I dont think folks in Portland or Augusta or York Beach would like it one bit but this is what is happening in our counties and we are made to pay the bill no matter what we think or feel. What works in Portland does not work in Eastport or Limestone.

[Acadianlion]

I suspect that another chapter in all of this is going to be written very, very soon.

My town clerk has told me that the town's delinquent tax notices and are up 50% year over year.

[mollysmiles]

Originally Posted by amacop

OK MRVphotog you may find these feelings really bothersome and that thay come from jealosy or insecurity but lets face facts Aroostock and Washington Counties have no power in Augusta as does the southern part of the state. If you live in either of these counties you live a different way of life as do folks to the south and have very different values. We in these counties are tired of "It works in the southern part of the state so it must work here too" this is very far from the truth as schools in Portland, Bangor, Augusta and other cities and towns to the south do not have to change a thing nor do their children need to face long bus rides to and from school and as for taxe increases they will not be faced with any major hike as those of us in these northern and eastern counties. So yes you may have been born in Maine and lived here all your life but your values are very different from ours and as I stated the Southern part has the wealth and the power so they dictate to us up north here what is good for us no matter how we feel about it and that is where the theory or should I say fact comes in to play is that there are two very distinct Maines and they just do not work well together.
Lets face it how would folks in the south feel if Aroostock and Washington county controlled the state and told you folks how you would live and that your taxes had to be increased to meet our demands and to support our residents that could not pay for heat this winter and food and medical because the only place to work in town shut down due to high fuel costs I dont think folks in Portland or Augusta or York Beach would like it one bit but this is what is happening in our counties and we are made to pay the bill no matter what we think or feel. What works in Portland does not work in Eastport or Limestone.

So much of what you say here is exactly right. Rural Maine is different than the more populated areas of the state, and school consolidation for us is entirely different than it would be for those folks. I have a step-son who teaches in southern Maine, and no matter how many times I try to explain the busing issues, the interscholastic issues, transportation to and from events, etc, he doesn't get it. There just is no way that will save money, it will only be spent elsewhere. All the kids in his school could walk home if push came to shove. I didn't read back, but honestly I don't want to. I'm tired of the whole North vs. South thing---it makes me sick. I think what's important to realize is that there are vast differences throughout Maine, and what's going to work in one area will not always work in another. That's exactly why blanket non-thinking legislature will NEVER work in Maine. This isn't NH or VT, or MA or CT....so to compare what works there to us isn't valid---those states don't cover nearly the square miles that Maine does, and that's a huge factor. There needs to be a better plan, one that will save money for the rural schools as well as those in more populated areas. This plan just isn't the one.

[Bydand]

I agree that the plan as laid out and jammed down everybodies necks isn't the right one at all. What I liked is that show Baldnazi put on when he went around to the towns and cities to gather ideas on what would work and why, then just went ahead and did what he and his crony's wanted, and proposed in the first place. Kind of like Dirgo Health, but that is a whole different rant . I think something has to give in order to keep the schools afloat and providing the best education they can. This plan just isn't it and nobody in Augusta is listening. I wish Maine all the best in this mess that is about to be forced on the schools.

[amacop]

Ok Folks NEWS FLASH........................In regards to school consolidation and according to our Superintendent (and with this and 1.50 you can get a cup of coffee) and the state DOE ................ get ready for a good laugh............Our town will save 72,000.00 a year for each of the first three years of our RSU. ALSO NO SCHOOL WILL BE CLOSED in the RSU.
Now after looking at the numbers and asking many people that are involved in this RSU formation and are facilitators or other Superintendents as well as a few elected officials everyone agrees that THERE IS NO WAY THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN AND THAT NO RURAL TOWN WILL SEE ANY SAVINGS when you factor in busing, increase in teacher salaries, added administration staff to support a large RSU, and a list of many other items not shown in this EPS Funding Formula. All the state did was take numbers use their formula and say look at what you save with no break down to show how and where the saving is.
According to our Superintendent if anyone has doubts as to the saving just call his office and his staff will make an appointment for you to come in and go over it with you.
Now that you are all done laughing how are other towns making out in this mess. especially those in rural Maine like throughout Washington County and Aroostock County.

[amacop]

[SIZE=2]OK this just came in to the residents of our town regarding school consolidation, the EPS Formula and an alleged cost saving to our town of $72,000.00 a year for each of the first three years of the new RSU.
Residents were told at a recent school board meeting by the Superintendent that our town would save this money over a three year period but after Bill Webster the Superintendent was put on the spot by residents and a facilitator that was asked to be there by the residents this is not the case. The money he claims we will save is actually a refund from money tax payers already paid to the school budget to cover teacher vacation pay and other expenses. The RSU would keep the total amount and each year give a refund to the town but still keep the interest made on the money to use as they see fit for education.
As for school closing he stated that it is in the plan being sent to Augusta that a new Junior/Senior High School be built somewhere between Gouldsboro and Sullivan and that it was also in the plan that Steuben could lose their elementary school and be forced to pay the additional cost of adding on to the new school being built in Prospect Harbor.
He further stated that any new debts to this town would be a wash during the process as we are a high tax low subsidy town. The facilitator made it known to the residents that based on this formula there is NO WAY that this town would not be hit hard for funding and increased taxes for all of this and that this was just a numbers game from Augusta.
That said many residents hope that the Greenlaw Petition gets passed and this law gets thrown out but with Southern Maine running the show and this having NO EFFECT on them as it will with rural Maine the hand writing is on the wall that this will be shot down again and we will all suffer.
[/SIZE]

[amacop]

OK More on School Consolidation folks and just think this comes from the law team that came up with this entire mess the following is quoted from an email they nsent me in regards to a couple of questions:

[SIZE=2]Dear Mr. Poce:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]I am not an attorney, so I have referred your questions to Attorney Smith, and he has informed me that we cannot provide legal advice (ok folks when you read my email to them where in it is it that I am asking for legal advice) to you about Steuben's attempt to separate from the proposed RSU because of a conflict of interest between the Steuben School Department and other proposed members of the RSU. He fully understands your frustration about the way the law restricts the options of municipal school units who are also CSD members, but if you wish to pursue this matter further, you will need to retain separate legal counsel. I am sorry we could not help you further.[/SIZE]
(What they forgot the laws they wrote and how they wrote them so from this point on it is adlib and make like you know what you are talking about..........hmmmmmmmmm sounds like future politicians to me)
[SIZE=2]Ruth Wentzel[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]From: Michael S. Poce [mailto:mspoce@downeast.net]
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 3:22 PM
To: Ruth Wentzel
Subject: RE: RSU Law
[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]As a member of the RPC for the town of Steuben I have questions that I need written answers for and ask that at this time you respond to this in a timely manner as our town has a lot of issues with this RSU and the Lease or Surrender of the deed to our school to the RSU. Also why we can not withdraw our students from the high school and withdraw from all talks with the RSU we are being placed with and partner with one we chose.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]According to the law and I quote:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2](20-A, 1461):[/SIZE][SIZE=2]6. Results of the Referendum. Each school administrative unit shall report the results of the referendum to the department following the referendum election. A.) A reorganization plan is approved by a kindergarten to grade 12 SAD or a kindergarten to grade 12 CSD if the majority of votes cast in the district is in favor of approval of the plan. B). A reorganization plan is approved by the member municipalities of a CSD that does not provide public education for the entire span of kindergarten to grade 12 if the majority of votes cast in the member municipalities is in favor of approval of the plan. Approval results in all member municipalities joining the RSU for all purposes for kindergarten to grade 12.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]We are a k-8 Municipal school our 9-12 attend Sumner High. Further we are the only Municipal School District that I am aware of in this RSU formation. Our town wants to vote NO on the current RSU plan and seeks to partner with another RSU so why should we be bound by the CSD vote as this is a direct infringement on the rights of our town and fails to provide a fair and equal treatment of our residents under federal law as well as state law and home town rule law. The US Constitution as well as the Declaration of Independence covers this type of law making and makes it illegal.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]At the meeting held at Ella Lewis School this past Tuesday your office made the statement that schools in an RSU could not withdraw until a change in the law was made. We are not an RSU yet and are still in the planning stage so if one looks at state and MSBA law as a municipal School District we could withdraw but your office stated that we could not as CSD prevails. I ask that you provide me with the CSD policy and laws for our CSD and not just a general CSD definition and that you provide me with the law that clearly states we can not withdraw and that we must turn our deed over to the RSU as described in the plan that will be sent to the DOE.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]The DOE web site clearly says that a local municipality can lease its school to an RSU no matter what the rest of the CSD thinks there is nothing that states we MUST.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Michael S. Poce[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]50 Dyer Bay Road[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Steuben 04680[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]207-546-2325[/SIZE]

[Acadianlion]

Originally Posted by amacop

OK More on School Consolidation folks and just think this comes from the law team that came up with this entire mess the following is quoted from an email they nsent me in regards to a couple of questions:

[SIZE=2]Dear Mr. Poce:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]I am not an attorney, so I have referred your questions to Attorney Smith, and he has informed me that we cannot provide legal advice (ok folks when you read my email to them where in it is it that I am asking for legal advice) to you about Steuben's attempt to separate from the proposed RSU because of a conflict of interest between the Steuben School Department and other proposed members of the RSU. He fully understands your frustration about the way the law restricts the options of municipal school units who are also CSD members, but if you wish to pursue this matter further, you will need to retain separate legal counsel. I am sorry we could not help you further.[/SIZE]
(What they forgot the laws they wrote and how they wrote them so from this point on it is adlib and make like you know what you are talking about..........hmmmmmmmmm sounds like future politicians to me)
[SIZE=2]Ruth Wentzel[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]From: Michael S. Poce [mailto:mspoce@downeast.net]
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 3:22 PM
To: Ruth Wentzel
Subject: RE: RSU Law
[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]As a member of the RPC for the town of Steuben I have questions that I need written answers for and ask that at this time you respond to this in a timely manner as our town has a lot of issues with this RSU and the Lease or Surrender of the deed to our school to the RSU. Also why we can not withdraw our students from the high school and withdraw from all talks with the RSU we are being placed with and partner with one we chose.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]According to the law and I quote:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2](20-A, 1461):[/SIZE][SIZE=2]6. Results of the Referendum. Each school administrative unit shall report the results of the referendum to the department following the referendum election. A.) A reorganization plan is approved by a kindergarten to grade 12 SAD or a kindergarten to grade 12 CSD if the majority of votes cast in the district is in favor of approval of the plan. B). A reorganization plan is approved by the member municipalities of a CSD that does not provide public education for the entire span of kindergarten to grade 12 if the majority of votes cast in the member municipalities is in favor of approval of the plan. Approval results in all member municipalities joining the RSU for all purposes for kindergarten to grade 12.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]We are a k-8 Municipal school our 9-12 attend Sumner High. Further we are the only Municipal School District that I am aware of in this RSU formation. Our town wants to vote NO on the current RSU plan and seeks to partner with another RSU so why should we be bound by the CSD vote as this is a direct infringement on the rights of our town and fails to provide a fair and equal treatment of our residents under federal law as well as state law and home town rule law. The US Constitution as well as the Declaration of Independence covers this type of law making and makes it illegal.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]At the meeting held at Ella Lewis School this past Tuesday your office made the statement that schools in an RSU could not withdraw until a change in the law was made. We are not an RSU yet and are still in the planning stage so if one looks at state and MSBA law as a municipal School District we could withdraw but your office stated that we could not as CSD prevails. I ask that you provide me with the CSD policy and laws for our CSD and not just a general CSD definition and that you provide me with the law that clearly states we can not withdraw and that we must turn our deed over to the RSU as described in the plan that will be sent to the DOE.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]The DOE web site clearly says that a local municipality can lease its school to an RSU no matter what the rest of the CSD thinks there is nothing that states we MUST.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Michael S. Poce[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]50 Dyer Bay Road[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Steuben 04680[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]207-546-2325[/SIZE]

Yup. A simple reading of this would seem to indicate that if you have an issue with what is happening, you need to gang together, hire a lawyer and file suit.

Most people cower and run at the thought of making a real fight, but education and health care are two areas where the Baldacci administration seems indifferent to the people in the rural areas of the state, so legal fights may be the only alternative.

Of course the other alternative is to restructure the entire state government, including making the legislature MUCH smaller so that the legislature would be more assessable and more responsive to the needs of the general electorate. But then again, maybe it is true that we get the government that we deserve...

[Northern Maine Land Man]

bydand says:
"I agree that the plan as laid out and jammed down everybodies necks isn't the right one at all."

We all have a chance to vote this thing down. In January there will be a referendum vote on this whole consolidation boondoggle. We need to reject it completely. I have not seen how the Secretary of state worded the ballot yet so I can't say whether to vote yes or no.

For example, if we want to eliminate the new bottle tax we need to vote YES on Question 1. Referendum issues are often worded so as to mislead voters on the actual intent of the question. There will be much more here on this crusade to eliminate rural schools before January. Stay tuned.

[Maine Writer]

I have the September 16 version of our RSU's plan sitting here on the table. We still have legality questions waiting to be answered. The attorney says DOE needs to answer us. DOE should have already had answers to what should be simple questions before this started. One answer we're waiting for - can alternates on the committee vote?

This RSU is going to appoint school advisory committees for each municipality. Town folks don't get to vote in their committee members. I know how it's going to work in my town and other than process, who does what isn't going to change.

There are things in this plan I wish I could share here. "Copyright 2007 Drummond Woodsum & McMahon. These materials may not be reproduced without priior wirtten permission, except that permission is hereby granted for all Maine school administrative units to reproduce these materials for use by them and Reorganization Planning Committees." You paid for it but DWM owns it. It's 49 pages long. I'll read it a few times before Tuesday's meeting.

The next meeting for Unions 104, 105, 106, CSD #12 (covers the East Range II School in Topsfield) and Vanceboro is September 23, 2008, 6:30 pm in the library. Meetings last two hours.