Should Northern Maine have a right to exist?? (Bangor, Augusta: public schools, income)

[Maine Writer]

Originally Posted by flycessna

I was specifically told by my legistlature that it would be cheaper to pay everyperson in aroostook county and washington counties off and move them down here.

There isn't enough money to afford to pay me off let alone everyone else in these counties.

[Northern Maine Land Man]

Mainah in a vain attempt to explain flycessna's comment says:

"Fly was just trying to remind those who dislike the Southern population centers of the state that OUR taxes also pay for YOUR schools, roads, bridges, and bussing your kids long distances to school."

That fellow readers is a bald faced lie!

The Unorganized territories pay for 100% of their own schools. People in the organized towns pay absolutely nothing into the schools in the unorganized Territories. That is 52% of the state. However, people in the Unorganized territories do pay toward the school swimming pools and fine auditoriums down there in lower Maine.

The Unorganized Territories also pay 100% of their own school transportation costs, not just for the drivers and fuel, but they own the busses.

I know that the state pays for the bridges on I-95 and US Route 1, but get back on the secondary roads and the Unorganized Territories pay for the roads, including plowing the snow.

Mainah needs to check his facts before he goes spouting off about a part of maine he knows little about.

It's a hot day and that hit my hot button. I have been in this fight since 1973 and I don't give up. To quote Winston Churchill:

"Never give in. Never give in. Never, never, never, never--in nothing, great or small, large or petty--never give in, except to convictions of honor and good sense. Never yield to force. Never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy."-- Winston Churchill, October 29, 1941

[Maineah]

Originally Posted by Northern Maine Land Man

Mainah in a vain attempt to explain flycessna's comment says:

"Fly was just trying to remind those who dislike the Southern population centers of the state that OUR taxes also pay for YOUR schools, roads, bridges, and bussing your kids long distances to school."

That fellow readers is a bald faced lie!

The Unorganized territories pay for 100% of their own schools. People in the organized towns pay absolutely nothing into the schools in the unorganized Territories. That is 52% of the state. However, people in the Unorganized territories do pay toward the school swimming pools and fine auditoriums down there in lower Maine.

The Unorganized Territories also pay 100% of their own school transportation costs, not just for the drivers and fuel, but they own the busses.

I know that the state pays for the bridges on I-95 and US Route 1, but get back on the secondary roads and the Unorganized Territories pay for the roads, including plowing the snow.

Mainah needs to check his facts before he goes spouting off about a part of maine he knows little about.

It's a hot day and that hit my hot button. I have been in this fight since 1973 and I don't give up. To quote Winston Churchill:

"Never give in. Never give in. Never, never, never, never--in nothing, great or small, large or petty--never give in, except to convictions of honor and good sense. Never yield to force. Never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy."-- Winston Churchill, October 29, 1941

I don't recall anyone stating we were talking about UNORGANIZED TERRITORIES in the first place NMLM. Direct your ire at the subject at hand. There are many towns in Northern Maine which derive funding from the State. 52% of the land may be unorganized townships but they all don't have schools so your FACTS are misleading at best!

[flycessna]

Originally Posted by Northern Maine Land Man

The Unorganized territories pay for 100% of their own schools. People in the organized towns pay absolutely nothing into the schools in the unorganized Territories. That is 52% of the state. However, people in the Unorganized territories do pay toward the school swimming pools and fine auditoriums down there in lower Maine.

I was not aware of that. I had thought forest said that he was reimbersed by the state for his kid(s) to go to school. I had no idea he had to pay for it himself?? but for the record I was talking about Northern Maine as a whole. Not just unorganized town ships.

Originally Posted by Northern Maine Land Man

The Unorganized Territories also pay 100% of their own school transportation costs, not just for the drivers and fuel, but they own the busses.

I know that the state pays for the bridges on I-95 and US Route 1, but get back on the secondary roads and the Unorganized Territories pay for the roads, including plowing the snow.

Mainah needs to check his facts before he goes spouting off about a part of maine he knows little about.

It's a hot day and that hit my hot button. I have been in this fight since 1973 and I don't give up. To quote Winston Churchill:

1st................what fight??

2nd.......So I guess you feel there is no net migration of tax dollars flowing into northern maine from souther maine?

[CapeCodder]

Doesn't this happen in a lot (if not all/most) of states? I have no children...I still pay taxes for schools, lots of people don't drive, yet pay taxes to maintain roads. Maine is Maine...north or south...doesn't matter. Maybe I'm simplifying this...but arguments like these drive me nuts (I know...don't read it...but it's like a car accident...you just hafta look).

[shadowfax1997]

Originally Posted by Maine Writer

Adding: I'm not being confrontational about this. If there are facts available I am honestly interested in seeing the information.

Finally a debate on this forum. It does get tiring reading some of the threads - all nice and neat and such.

Here are some facts for my town - raymond and eastport. The data comes from 2004 Fiscal Survey Report index
It is pretty easy to look up towns and compare. the numbers I will use are rough numbers.

Raymond -
State subsidy = 2,051,233
Population 2000 census - 4299
$ from state to town per person - $477

Eastport -
State subsidy - 1,495,589
Population 2000 census - 1640
$ from state to town per person - $911

Eastport gets almost twice as much money from the state as does Raymond.

As for money paid to the state - assuming everyone in the state pays the same amount - roughly $26,000 ( a number I found on several websites ), and an 8.5% rate - the rate for people making more than $17K according to the state web site, then the average person pays $2210.
Raymond would pay $9,500,790
Eastport would pay $3,624,400

That is money moving out of a southern town - Raymond to a northern town. I know the numbers aren't completely accurate, but they are something to work with. The original post asks a good question - Should they (northern maine) have the right to exist and at what cost?

Of course they have a right to exist, but the question becomes how much of someone elses money should be confiscated and transfered to that locale? How much money should be spent so that people can live in a certain area? I don't have answers. The famous "bridge to nowhere" in alaska - should MILLIONS of dollars be spent on a bridge for 100? people? (i don't remember the number). I say NO.

I do know that a side effect of the gas price issue is that many people are starting to move closer to towns and their jobs. That can be good although i prefer my privacy. Overall, less money spent of roads, vehicles, fewer emergency services, etc.

[RANGER.101ST]

[/quote]didn't dhs lose like 30 million dollars a few years ago?[quote]DHS has suckt more money out of the state than any other dept in the state.take for example child custady they have gone in taken peopls kids granted some needed to be taken but othes didnt and spend thousands investigateing and give the kids right back.why bother takeing them if your going to give them right back.none of these departments work together.if you have some one that wont pay his or her child support becouse they cant find a job give them one dot hires every day dont spend thousand upon thousands in court.i could save this state millions and millions.every one in jail would be going to work.people worry about letting them out in the publick.quick fix shoot to kill order if you run from the guard you get shot done deal.if you work for the state your going to do your job if you dont you dont get paid.good thing im not the gov there would be allot of new faces in disgusta and alot of high paid flunkys looking for work.you cant fix northern maine without fixing the capital first.

[Maineah]

Originally Posted by flycessna

I was not aware of that. I had thought forest said that he was reimbersed by the state for his kid(s) to go to school. I had no idea he had to pay for it himself?? but for the record I was talking about Northern Maine as a whole. Not just unorganized town ships.




1st................what fight??

2nd.......So I guess you feel there is no net migration of tax dollars flowing into norther maine from souther maine?

There's no point beating this to death any longer. Those who believe the South carries the North are certainly not going to be convinced from those who believe otherwise and vice versa. Bydand was right...this is just going to end up in an us versus them argument that will never be solved here. The direction and defensive posture everyone takes with this issue only goes to prove how much of a sticking point this is between the wealthy sections of the State and the not so wealthy sections. The point originally was, what Northern Maine would do without State funding. Obviously they would be far worse off than they are now.

[Northern Maine Land Man]

flycessna asks:
"1st................what fight??

2nd.......So I guess you feel there is no net migration of tax dollars flowing into northern maine from souther maine?"

Glad you asked.

We have been in a struggle for freedom since 1971 when we lost the right to govern ourselves or even vote for those who do govern us. It isn't a matter of civil procedure. It's a matter of human rights.

We have about 9 million acres up here that pay taxes to Augusta directly and all the citizens that also pay the same income and sales taxes as those in the incorporated towns. Sure we have people on welfare up here and some schools in the incorporated towns. We pay for them. Augusta skims the cream off the top. We don't have huge concert halls and swimming pools in our public schools.

[Zymer]

Originally Posted by Maineah

Simple logic should suffice. Take the mean income of a town, divide the property values by the mill rate and multiply it by the tax paying population. Look through the school budget , fire department, road crews, police, and tell me a town of 2500 people's taxes can support all of that infrastructire on it's own. There is no possible way.

This fits my town, so I'll throw in my 2 cents...I just got my property tax bill for $2G, the bulk of that (IIRC) goes to the school system (and I don't have kids).

What's left over, plus vehicle excises taxes pays for the rest of the stuff. Obviously, roads that are designated as State Routes get maintained with state funds. The other roads...well, they vote the budget and whatever money is appropriated gets used for that, for example a small stretch (less than 1/2 mile?) of the road I live on was re-paved this year- that's all the money there was, so that's all that got done.

(Snow plowing & salt are a seperate item in the budget.)

I think the FD is mostly volunteer, what little money there is for that goes to maintain the equipment.

We don't have a police department- a line item in the budget sets aside some money to pay for a Deputy from the County to be on call for 40 hrs/wk. (Which I think is a waste of money.)

I think the bigest town salary is the Code Enforcement Officer...which I think is another waste of money but that's just me.

We do what we can with what we have, I don't recall seeing anything in the budget showing funds rec'd from the State, but I could very well have missed it.

If memory serves, I think nearly 3/4 of the property tax money goes to the school system. I think the subject of schools deserves some debate, in particular, "What level of education should be regarded as minimally acceptable?" and "Just exactly how much responsibility for what level of education should the public be required to pay for?"

I think there is a great deal of money being wasted, not just in the state, but in the school systems throughout the country. Sure, a state-of-the-art, multi-million dollar HS chem lab is nice...but how many of the students will actually USE any of the knowledge that teachers [try to] impart there? How many students actually USE advanced mathematics like Algebra, Trigonometry and Calculus once they get out of school?

Frankly, we are NOT all created "equal". We all have different levels of comprehension and abilities. Take me, for example- "solve for 'x'? Forget it, I suck at math. Give me a pencil and paper and I can do the basics, but the money spent trying to teach me Alg, Trig and Calc was a total waste.

Personally, I think school systems should be totally revamped. There is no need for every school in every town to [try to] teach everything. We waste gobs of money trying to teach kids things they'll never use, and then [in comparison] almost completely neglect things that will be important for the rest of their lives and in return we get generations of kids that can't manage their own personal budget or use credit responsibly and know little or nothing about the history of out country and responsible government...who then become politicians and *really* screw things up for *everybody* (my apologies to any honest politicians who are really trying to do some good for the public rather than themselves...we do still have some of those left...don't we?).

/rant