Installing Geothermal Heat Pumps?

[Northern Maine Land Man]

Air exchanger. Pump the humid air out and let dry air in. It's a pipe within a pipe. By the time the dry air gets in it is the same temp as the wet air going out.

[forest beekeeper]

Originally Posted by Northern Maine Land Man

Air exchanger. Pump the humid air out and let dry air in. It's a pipe within a pipe. By the time the dry air gets in it is the same temp as the wet air going out.

Thanks, "Heat Recovery Ventilators".

Yes the last time we spoke of them, I got DM'ed from a local guy who works at an enineering firm who installs them.

They came out, took measurements and gave me a quote.

You could near build a house for that much money.

Then I did some more reading. Most folks who have them in their new homes find that:
a. they can not distinguish if the unit is running or not [it makes no difference]; and
b. they end up being a house' largest electricity hog.

So most of them that are installed tend to get turned off and ignored.

A big chunk of change that does near to nothing.

I drew up a design for a gizmo that I will build once I am finished with our garage. Cheap to run and it should do the trick for us. I just have to finish this fruit orchard first, then a couple french drains, and some floor covering, and some greenhouses, and we need a new still, and ...

[Acadianlion]

Originally Posted by forest beekeeper

'Nuetral balanced' homes are a big deal on 'Hot and Cold'. Homes where the heat from cooking, body heat, your TV and stereo; al add up to be enough to maintain your home at a comfortable temp through the winter.

e.

"Neutral Balance Home" is not a term that I have seen written elsewhere, but it is essential the central theme behind the dwelling/building concepts developed by the Passive Haus Institut in Darmstadt, Germany. (Here in the US it is the Passive House Institute located in Urbana, Illiniois. On the web: www.passivehouse.us)

The German engineer who developed the Passiv Haus Institute began doing his research about thirty years ago. His purpose was to drastically reduce the amount of energy required to condition the interior living space while still improving the interior quality of air in the living environment. This Passive House is now becoming the building code for Germany and most of the northern European countries that have signed the Kyoto Accords.

The concept involves far higher levels of insulation in the building envelope, elimination of thermal bridging and ANY infiltration of air from the outside that is not controlled. This require the use of a heat recovery ventillator that continually changes the interior air, removing air from bathrooms and kitchen areas and replacing the air by delivering air to the bedrooms and common living areas of the house. It is not an uncommon element of design to use an "earth tube" that runs some length underground to be the source of the replenishment air, thus in the winter the replenishment air is around 50 degrees F. at the inlet of the heat recovery ventillator. A relatively small resistance heating element then brings the air to room normal heated temperature

The amount of energy consumed in a Passive House, in order for that house to meet Passive House certification standard, experessed in killowatts is 30Kwh/m2(a) annually. Yes: I wrote that correctly: thirty kilowatts per square meter of area ANNUALLY.

Of course the caveats to this are the levels and types of insulation used, use of windows that are triple glazed with insulated frame not common in this country, as well as doors that effect a seal to control air flow. Such houses are being built using TGI trusses on end in wall framing or double studding to achieve sufficient insulation volume in the walls and roofs.

The Passive House program has developed a computer model that brings into the equation every variable in structure construction, using the engineering characteristics of each element in order to predict the true heat loss of the completed structure. Even the permeability of the exterior skins of the house is weighted in advance so that changes in materials can be made in the design stage in order to reduce the heat loss of the completed envelope.

These houses require no added heat source, and these houses have been built here in this country at various level of conpliance with Passive House standard for more than ten years, including places like Minnesota which enjoys a very cold winter climate.

The heat recovery ventillation system insures a continuously refreshed air interior climate during all seasons, and in some climates the need for air contioning is eliminated especially when an earth tube is used as the air source. (No, the open end of the earth tube is not underground!).

For Passive House certification, in addition to the computer modeling for structure performance, the house also must pass a strict blower door test, which is perhaps the hardest test to pass of all. Compared to Leeds Platinum certification, Passive House is on the order of thirty times more restrictive in terms of air infiltration.

We attended a Passive House meeting at Brandeis University last month. That meeting was attended by Katrin Klingenberg who is the head of the Passive House Insitute in Illiniois. She is the author of "Homes for a Changing Climate", which gives specifics and shows examples of passive houses that have been built and are being operated successfully. There is even one house on Marthas Vinyard that has a fireplace, although the design and engineering necessary for that fireplace was extensive by itself, and the materials used seem to me to be very expensive. The owner of that house was present and discussed the performance of his house.

The cost differential between a "conventional" house and a passive house is around 10-15%. This is the figure quoted by Klingenberg, and from the builders and architects who contibute to the Passive House forum, this seems to be a consistent number developed over the past decade or two. Remember, a conventional heating system of ANY type is eliminated in a passive house.

The Kyoto Accords, signed by most European nations, as well as far more petroleum costs have driven European countries to aggressively pursue energy consumption reductions than is the case here in this country.

[Northern Maine Land Man]

My son has a house with an air exchanger installed as a radon eliminator. There was never a radon problem, just a paranoid prior owner who was taken advantage of by scare tactics. However, the air exchange system does keep a very dry cellar.

The best method for air exchange is the sky method. Huh? Bear with me. You want moist air out and dry air in. That's a given. You can check the local humidity with a hygrometer or on the radio station, but run your air exchanger when the sky is bright blue as it is today. When the sky is grey the humidity is high. Don't run your air exchanger that day. It will be a waste of money.

[frogcreekwoods]

This is such a fascinating conversation, and I am so impressed with the knowledge so many of you have about passive heating and super-efficiency.

With a little digging I found the website of Hot and Cold . I was hoping it would have some podcasts for download but alas, not yet. There are some interesting links though.

[Northern Maine Land Man]

Water wants to be ice. It is happiest when it is ice. It is always trying to be ice. It takes a great deal of heat for it not to be ice. Take a can of soda out of the refrigerator, set it on the table and every water molecule in the room heads for that can. Water condenses on the outside of it. That happens in homes too. Water vapor goes to the coldest spot. That can be your attic roof. If your attic is poorly ventilated, you will see frost on the inside of your roof. This can cause rot, mold and other problems. The solution is mentioned in the link above. It is a vapor barrier as close as possible to the inside of your house. The inside is warm and condensation will not occur on a warm surface.

That's the short story on vapor barriers and condensation.

[bangorme]

Originally Posted by Acadianlion

I suggest that you look at this web site: www.passivehouse.us for information about low energy heating. Passive House is a movement in northern Europe where it is becoming the energy and building code for new home construction.

This is great advice. I owned a solar home in Aroostook county that I heated for $400 a year (heated with a pellet stove). As far as I'm concerned, this is the only way to go. The problem is that, unless it has changed, you will get no tax breaks for building or maintaining one. I suspect, because anyone can build one, there just isn't a lobby that can funnel the graft to our our elected representatives in Washington. Instead we are encouraged to buy expensive solar panels that don't save .01% of the energy a properly constructed solar house can.

Also, the Portland Custom House is heated and cooled using geothermal energy. I believe it was a very expensive undertaking that probably only the government would attempt.

[Acadianlion]

Originally Posted by bangorme

This is great advice. I owned a solar home in Aroostook county that I heated for $400 a year (heated with a pellet stove). As far as I'm concerned, this is the only way to go. The problem is that, unless it has changed, you will get no tax breaks for building or maintaining one. I suspect, because anyone can build one, there just isn't a lobby that can funnel the graft to our our elected representatives in Washington. Instead we are encouraged to buy expensive solar panels that don't save .01% of the energy a properly constructed solar house can.

Also, the Portland Custom House is heated and cooled using geothermal energy. I believe it was a very expensive undertaking that probably only the government would attempt.

I suspect that there will be zero tax credits or other "assistance" for us in this project. Our intent is to live OFF GRID, and since we will not be a potential site of free energy for the entrenched utility, Bangor Hydro, the gummint isn't going to extend credits to us.

Remember, our government has NOT signed the Kyoto Accords and therefore as a nation, we have not come down on the positive side of conservation. Whether or not one believes in conservation is as irrelevant as saying that one doesn't think it matters if he/she smokes every day since his or her father smoked for seventy years before dying in a car wreck. The plane fact is that the science says that smoking is bad, and the science says that it is bad to pollute and that we may have peaked as far as petroleum production is concerned.

Our choice is to make the strongest attempt possible to reduce our carbon and energy footprint for the years on this planet that we have left.

It will be a LOT of hard work, and I must substitute intense studying and learning in advance of this project because I am not independently wealthy. I will be underwriting this project myself and I am optimistic that we can indeed do this without gummint help.

Of course, I am an optimistic fellow: I am a salesman after all!

[bangorme]

Originally Posted by Acadianlion

Our choice is to make the strongest attempt possible to reduce our carbon and energy footprint for the years on this planet that we have left.

Well, I don't buy into most of what you said in your message, but anyway, why waste money and resources if you don't have to? In my opinion, the only reason the tax credits allowed for most "green" energy saving devices are not extended to the largest possible saver of energy (passive solar homes), is because there is no single source of that technology that can funnel money to our politicians. Otherwise they would be at the trough with the solar teakettle makers.

There are a couple good books out on the building a passive solar home. Stay away from any that involve the use of airspaces under the home as they have been linked to mold. There is also a magazine that occassionally publishes an article on passive solar heating, but I don't remember the name of it. The slab as a heatsink is a critical part of the concept and insulating it properly essential. Also, your lot must be landscaped properly so nothing blocks the sun in the winter and everything blocks it in the summer. I used solar shades on all my southern windows and the house stayed cool through the summer.

Have fun, I loved that house.