Huge Moosehead Lake developement moving along (Millinocket, Greenville: condos, homes, buy)

[ribbets]

Have to agree with maine broker We need more jobs north of Augusta

[NJ Bear]

Originally Posted by AustinB

I'm not sure, but I think that you actually believe Plum Creek is going to sell 1000 houses next year and then buid all kinds of support structures. .

Nope. Not next year. But in 10-20 years? If they can? You betcha! Build it an dthey wil come. These housing doldrums and floreclosure crisis and econmic downturn will not last forever. When the poop hits the fan I hope Maine is ready. The momentum has been building for 10-20-30 years now.

It's a worthwhile proposal, but they won't sell 1000 houses there in my lifetime

I wish I had confidence in that. You folks in Maine, other than along the immediate coast, haven't seen how quickly the tide can turn once the greedy developers start buying parcels and marketing them and the peopel from elsewhere with money to burn hear about things like this. They will gobble it up like candy and then ask for more.

I hear you on the people having the say, and property owner's rights, and all that. But I also feel that what one individual property owner feels is "highest and best use", may not be what most others think today, may npt be what is agreeable in the future, may not be what is best for the greater whole; and what most others think today may not be what the next generation wants to inherit. If we are talking about a few acres here and there, by all means I am for private property rights. If we are talking about one town or one state, I am all for home rule. I do have reservations however when large scale decisions need to be makde over wide geographic areas with unique qualities, decisions that impact people and resoruces far beyond the locals. Again, I hear the locals, I sympathize/empathize with them. But frankly the sentiments about a few jobs created here and there, or about privat eproperty rights, or about how Mainers treat their land... it really does sound a bit like when the white man came from Europe, and the native americans made native american deals with native american belief systems with men from away who beleived differently and hade plans of which the natives could never conceive. "This is how we've always done it and it's worked for us for this long" jsut won't work when the property investors who've never set foot in Maine with any intent other than carving it up, making tehir $, and leaving start getting what they want. God, I propbably sound liek one of "those people" here if you choose to view what I'm saying in that light. But what I'm really suggesting is that this Plum Creek proposal is only the beginning, and if Mainers are concerned about their quality of life, their economy, their home rule, and their land, and in fact do value the open space and freedom of access and environmental balanc ethat they claim to, th ehandling the Plum Creek proposal's approval or denial WILL set a precedent for others to follow. It seems to me that so many are focused on the economy and the consevration groups that the biggest threats are walking right by undetected. Do you people really believe that northern and western Maine are in no threat of becoming another White Mountains, another Vermont, another giant amusement park for wealthy vactaioners, second homeowners, transplant residents, and retirees? Do you really want to have your best jobs be in seasonal hospitality instead of productive industry? Do you really think when the "beautiful peopel" discover teh woods en masse they will embrace the logging industry with open arms? I think protecting Maine's environment, home rule/property rights/land access, and economy/jobs are all more closely related, and ALLIED, than many realize.

In any event, rest assured that while I'm pro-environment to a degree, I am also not in the least in favor of rural cleansing. I dare say however that the developers are probably at least as hungry for "rural cleansing" to occur as the eco-nuts. Maybe even moreso... their financial goals will depend on it!

[Northern Maine Land Man]

Greenville would benefit from any new building in the area, but none of the property is in Greenville. The decision should be made by the citizens of the Unorganized Territories, not by the seven unelected functionaries who run LURC.

[Northern Maine Land Man]

"I hear you on the people having the say, and property owner's rights, and all that. But I also feel that what one individual property owner feels is "highest and best use", may not be what most others think today, may npt be what is agreeable in the future, may not be what is best for the greater whole; and what most others think today may not be what the next generation wants to inherit."

These people are so transparent. It is up to the owner to decide the highest and best use, not some gadfly in New Jersey, Augusta or Washington, DC. My grandson should be able to decide the highest and best use for the old growth forest I own when it's his time to own it. I know for a fact it has not been cut for way over 100 years. The man who owned it in 1890 said it had never been cut. There are no limbs on my trees for the first 50 feet.

There was an article in the old Argus Champion newspaper in 1970 by a journalism student in a summer internship. There was an old pine grove in Sunapee, NH that had been there for many years. People went to picnic in the grove. It was a popular spot. One week the grove was harvested. It generated a lot of interest and the intern reporter went to interview the old lady that lived nearby.

"Don't you think it's terrible that they cut the grove", she asked? (THis intern was one of the new generation of journalists who approach every issue with a predetermined agenda.)

The old lady was in her rocker on the porch. She replied: "Young lady, when I was a little girl i weeded the garden on that ground. Then grandpa planted the pines. This is the first time in 25 years that I have been able to see the mountain from my porch and I like it. I had those trees cut so my granddaughter could go to college."

Good people live up here. We just want to keep the rights we have had for centuries. The econazis don't want us to have those rights or our land.

[NJ Bear]

NMLM, I wish I could agree with you 100% when you advocate so passionately for property owner's rights. I truly wish we lived in a world where taht could be so. But I've seen what happens when the same rights extended to private property owners are extended to large proeprty holders with deep pockets and no concern in teh world beyond making their deep pockets deeper. If we are talking about private landowners, I am 100% beside you. If we are talking about corporate conglomerates and real estate investors who hold the balance of an entire region in their hands, histroy has proven that free range can lead to disaster.

You know what? In my vision of utopia, nobody from anywhere but Maine should have any say on what Mainers do with their land. But PLUM CREEK IS NOT a MAINER. But let's not talk just about Plumcreek here, I am talking bigger picture- those developers who couldn't give a d$mnn what Mainers think a slong as they meet thair financial targets on that proposed development of their after the timber company went belly-up an dthey bought the land for pcokect change to turn aroudn and make millions on it. Does someone from NYC who buys a large tract if land with no intent othe tahn to pave it over have the same standing as a "Mainer" when it comes to deciding use o f the the land? If they do, than why do they have the same full rights, privilges and protections as any other Maine landowner, while the environmental organizations and out of state interests who buyland with consevration in mind don't? Or if both havethe same rights, why is venom directed solely at one and not the other? Or have most of th epople of rural Maine just not yet met the face of their newest threat? Nobody seems to appreciate the fact that developemnt on a large scale, and corresponding influnxes of people from elsewhere who will mostly have little reagrd for the opinions of thos who have been there for generations, is one of the biggest threats to the freedoms Mainers hold so dear, probably the BIGGEST threat to your economy ( other than globalization of the world's economies), your quality of life, your land access, and yes, on the local, private proeprty ownership scale, your very own property rights. I still can't believe the anger shown overtly towards the environmental groups while thsoe who are most eager to alter Maine to suit their own interests seem to be ignored or given a pass. I'm not so much defending the environmental groups here and saying that the environmenta; groups are the LEAST of the threats to your quality of life, economy, and freedoms.

We are not talking about cutting a grove for timber. Hell lots more than a grove gets cut for timber in Maine every day. We are talking about th epossibility of taking massive tracts of land (please note: I am talking about the general situation here, NOT just about the Plum Creek Proposal but about the hungry wolves who simply can't wait for the Maine timber and paper industry to fail so that they might get hold of all that land at fire-sale prices for development) OUT of timber production and out of the vibrant healthy ecosystem, limiting land use and access, limititing recreational opportunities and quality of life, for at least you an dyour childrens lifetimes i fnot permanently. I totally advocate for Mainers to ultimately decide the future of their state. But I fear, especially from the defensive feedback some of my comments on this forum have generated, that some of the greater threats to all of those things are being ignored in the name of knee-jerk reactions to environmtal radicalism.

I could tell several stories about the promises of a "better economy" by advocates of development; you knwo what? The local economy is no different after the development, the traffic is worse, and land that could have been used for timbe ror crop production or recreational use is paved over. The only benefit is to the developer who made his millions and ran away to leave the locals to go on about their lives, now more stressed and restricted, and with no more money than they had before.

I want Mainers to be able to keep cutting trees! I want the land to keep growing trees for Mainers to cut. I want Mainers to enjoy the lands of their state as they see fit. But if the fight you choose to fight is exclusicely against the environmentalists, you may find your noses cut off to spite your face by the very change you hope for. I don't know if Plum Creek's plan is better or worse, but I can guarantee it won't be the first time the people in Maine have to choose. I hope their choices are not based entirely on their distaste fo rthe environmentalists and teh questionable promises of a brighter future via development. The people who buy most of those houses will not give a d$mn about your woods or mill jobs, that is for sure. Nor will the sumemr people give a d%mn what you do for income the 6 months o fth eyear that your hospitality or service job doesn't exist.

Good people do live in Maine, NMLM, no question about it. I have much less regard for thsoe from elsewhere who seek to change it fo rtheir own interests. You will not have the same rights you've enjoyed thus far if you let them have their way. That applies equally to eco-nazis AND would be developers.

My opinions on Plum creek are mixed. But this is just one example of what is coming. I really have nothing else to say other than this: Choose friends and battles wisely, lest you allow Maine to become like the places the people who seek to change Maine hail from. I am not advocating against Plum Creek's plan here so much as questioning the answers, which mostly confuse me because the advocates of individual proeprty rights and freedoms also seem most in favor of actions by people/groups who are not individuals, nor even Mainers, that in most cases lead to encroachment on and gradual erosion of those very same rights. You people in Maine have more freedoms and rights when it comes to proeprty and land use and land access than pretty much anyone els ein the northeast- why would you want outside interests to have free reign to erode that?

[Northern Maine Land Man]

"NOT just about the Plum Creek Proposal but about the hungry wolves who simply can't wait for the Maine timber and paper industry to fail so that they might get hold of all that land at fire-sale prices for development)"

It has already happened. There is a popular tern still heard in Maine and that is "paper company land". It is gone. There is no paper company land left in Maine today. The last hold-out was Fraser paper and they sold their land about four years ago. The econazis mounted a PR campaign screaming about the huge land transfers and "10's 100's, 1,000 or even 4,000" cubicles for the hired help in some future hotel that might eventually be built. It was a Josef Goebbels style campaign where if you repeat a lie long enough it becomes the truth. The econazis and their donors bought all that land. The only one they missed was the Scott paper land. It was bought by Plum Creek, but they have squeezed 99% of that land away from Plum Creek and their hired PR teams and bloggers are screaming about potential development on that one percent as though it were a problem. It is not a problem. The real problem is the hundreds of townships and millions of acres lost forever from our economic base.

"I am talking about the general situation here, NOT just about the Plum Creek Proposal but about the hungry wolves who simply can't wait for the Maine timber and paper industry to fail so that they might get hold of all that land at fire-sale prices for development)"

Too late, NJ Bear. The "hungry wolves" are the amazingly wealthy environmental foundations who licked up the spoils after the paper mills sold off their lands. Why would the mills do that? There are two reasons:

1. Maine's legislature told the mills they were no longer welcome to do business in Maine.

2. The environmental industry initiated bills in the legislature to outlaw efficient logging.

[NJ Bear]

NMLM, you oversimplify. Yes, I use the terms "paper company" or "timber company" land in teh general sense to describe land "owned for the purpose of timber production". There is MUCH lan din Maine still owned by timber and paper related interests with the intent of using such land for timber production. Also jsut for arguments sake, the last I heards, which was only a coupel months ago, Irving owned about 800 sq. mile sin teh state of Maine. It's hard not to call that "paper company or timber company land". What about the land owned and manage dby Huber? In theory Plum Creek is a lumber company as well. It's true the days of the mill-owned forests are largely over, but to suggest that most of the Maine woods is owned by environmentalists adn nto by private holders with timber use inmind is an exeaggeration at the least.

When they decide to or are forced to sell, the next owner's reasons to clear timber will have nothing to do with lumber or paper production.

"The real problem is the hundreds of townships and millions of acres lost forever from our economic base."

How does a back yard of a house contribute economically either then?

NMLM, I know and understand more about Maine's history, geography and economy than you realize. You are not saying things I did not know or have not heard before regarding these matters. JDI, Fraser, GNP, Scott, SD Warren, Yorktown, Champion, Oxford, Sappi, Huber, IP, LP, GP, Diamond International, Katahdin, Domtar, Boise, Costigan, East, Bucksport, Otis, Great Works, Orland Dwelley, Prentiss & Carlisle, Guptill's logging supply (now "power equipmement" or some such)- Maine's land use and logging and paper industries, past and present, are not some great unkown to me- nor are they "evil", although I would hesitate to call them "angelic" either. Liek most things there is good and bad, but if conscientiously managed the good far outweighs the bad. I know and love sweet smell that hangs in the air every time a chip truck bound for Easton or wherever passes by on the highway, it's jake brake screaming to keep the speed reasonable down a long even grade. I do not oppose this. This is an economy in ways that seasonal resorts or service jobs simply are not.

You are blasting the environmentalits while I am talking about the other side of the coin, the developers and the out of staters who are just as eager to control their slice of Maine as the "econazis" andmanipulat and remake it for THEIR own purpose.

Relax, NMLM... you've got more of a friend here than you may realize at first, though I am sure you may be a bit skeptical. We may not see eye to eye on some things but I think we agree on at least as many points as we disagree, probably more. I still want to know more about why many Mainers do not seem concerned in the least about what will happen if and when the paper and lumber industry really is gone, nor likewise about the ways in which developers and newcomers will make it harder and harder in the meantime for those remaining indutries and jobs to stay.

[Northern Maine Land Man]

Everybody likes clean air and clean water. The issue at hand is power and I don't mean water, wind, solar or nuclear power. I mean raw brutal power over people and what all that means. We have been under attack since the 1947 Bar Harbor Conference that I know of. We did nothing to deserve this attack, but with our backs to the wall we will be forced to defend ourselves. We didn't ask for this fight.

[NJ Bear]

Whether or not you asked, you are in it. And persoanlly I do not see the developers or would-be transplants as your allies.

You may discount my opinions because I am not a Maine resident. However I speak from experience as I've already watched firsthand as teh same people and the same motives and the same money overrun 4 other states. I do feel your dearest interests will be served better if the devlopers are not allowed to gain momentum. If they do, the battles you've faced thus far may seem trivial in hindsight. They can afford even better lawyers and PR propagandists than the econazis...

[Northern Maine Land Man]

You don't understand. The Nature Conservancy has a budget of $2,000,000 a DAY and they are closing in on a billion a year. They are the biggest single group, but they are dwarfed by the Environmental Grantmakers Association who fund such groups as the ecoterrorist group, Earth First. Ecoterrorists and Muslim Terrorists have the same goals. They want to take us back to a seventh century existence. They use violence to advance their cause. They are allies.

By the way, many of those so called transplants are returning Mainers who come home at the age of 55 to get out of the rat race. Come home people. We need you.