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Old 11-10-2009, 03:38 PM
 
Location: God's Country, Maine
2,052 posts, read 3,978,057 times
Reputation: 1295

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The brush pile is from commercial thinning of the red pine plantation behind it. I have no idea why they didn't chip it. The sign is right there on the same road leading out of Rum Ridge to Mock Hill and Hedgehog/KI. There are a lot of vandalism against anything Plum Creek up here in recent years.

I am as big of a free enterprise and landowner rights guy as you will find. The motives of the enviro nut jobs and their land ownership is insidious. What uses they can not remove through ownership, they will force the hands of government to regulate.

The AMC, Nature Conservancy, Sierra Club and others, are the real threat to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Their ultimate goal is to restrict development to small enclaves where they see fit and forever preserve their own playgrounds.

The Gubernors and Legiscritters of this State reinforce their agenda with the ridiculous Land for Maine's Future fund and rogue agencies such as LURC and DEP. The large landowners of the state sold out to the holding companies precisely because of their idiotic policies.

My guess is that Baldarchie has a job waiting with one of the hideous wind power companies.
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Old 11-10-2009, 05:03 PM
 
Location: Waldo County
1,220 posts, read 3,446,947 times
Reputation: 1393
Quote:
Originally Posted by arctichomesteader View Post
The timber and paper companies are only selling their land off in ME because the far-left enviro types passed laws (regulations, taxes, etc.) that have made it uneconomical to hold and use timber land in ME. So, they must sell it off to keep profitable, then the same people responsible for them having to sell it off in the first place, set up so many roadblocks to selling it to those they would prefer to sell to (think of the Moosehead Lake debacle), they are essentially cornered into selling it to the enviros, who then lock it up from everyone who had always had access.

You can sit back and allow them to do it, of course, but of course their eventual goal is to force everyone out. Once they have bought enough up they'll likely be trying once more to have it made a National Park by donating or selling at dirt cheap prices to the feds to start the park, then the feds will gobble up everyone else who didn't sell out.
This is just flat incorrect. The reason the paper companies are selling off assets in Maine is because the paper industry is not really competitive here in Maine. One big reason for this is that the labor contracts have required so much in wages and benefits that there has been a lack of plant modernization across the industry. In contrast to other nations who have fostered plant modernization, yes: like Russia for instance.

Plum Creek has sold what it sold because they could make more money off that land than had they continued to manage it for timber. One of the big reasons for that is the cost of running a woods crew in Maine is disproportionately high for the yield per acre.
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Old 11-10-2009, 06:09 PM
 
Location: Northern Maine
9,525 posts, read 14,321,983 times
Reputation: 9014
The paper industry is not competitive in Maine because Augusta and G38 have made it impossible for a paper mill to own land profitably in Maine. As of now there is no such thing as "paper company land". All of it has been sold off at fire sale prices to the environmental industry and government. The good old days are over. Yes, you can still go bird hunting on the fringes of this land, but how far can you drag a moose by hand?

The econazis are circling for the kill. They started out with a goal of taking all the forested land in Maine. They have made very good progress. Just look up The Wildlands Project. It is the end of free enterprise in the woods and the end of a way of life. Several years ago I supported Jim Longley when he ran for office. After the election I was talking with his campaign scheduler. I told him that the reason Jim didn't do better in the North Country was that he didn't understand what the econazis were doing to us. Jim either didn't believe it or didn't understand it. I told the staffer that some greenie was going to enter private land to look for salamaders or something and when he came back out to the road he would find his Volvo upside down and on fire. The staffer was incredulous. He didn't understand either.

"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

About five years ago Plum Creek applied for a small development on 400,000 acres of land they own near Moosehead Lake. In return the company would put 11,000 acres into a conservation easement. It was a generous offer. The environmental industry went ballistic. Their most effective tool in Maine is LURC. They turned the tables on the landowner. After five years the Plum Creek plan was never approved. Instead the LURC plan was imposed on Plum Creek. The company would be allowed to develop 11,000 acres, but they would have to put 400,000 acres into conservation easements. This is expropriation of private property and something you might expect to see Hugo Chavez pull. Nope. It happened right here in Maine by the seven unelected political appointees who rule 52% of Maine.
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Old 11-10-2009, 07:06 PM
 
Location: God's Country, Maine
2,052 posts, read 3,978,057 times
Reputation: 1295
The tree huggers are thoroughly convinced that the best use of the land is no use. They have no use for man tracks polluting their playground, but are more than happy to introduce the Eastern Timberwolf, Canadian Lynx in order to shut off the land to traditional uses such as hunting, fishing and general use.

Just look no further than the coastal beaches and the bastardization of the laws that prevent use because of their beloved Piping Plover.
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Old 11-10-2009, 07:31 PM
 
Location: Northern Maine
9,525 posts, read 14,321,983 times
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Think you know what CPR stands for? For TNC and their ilk it stands for "Committee to Prevent Roads". Their goal is to rip out ALL the culverts. That includes bridges and dams while they are at it.
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Old 11-10-2009, 07:42 PM
 
Location: The Woods
16,458 posts, read 21,499,103 times
Reputation: 8417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acadianlion View Post
This is just flat incorrect. The reason the paper companies are selling off assets in Maine is because the paper industry is not really competitive here in Maine. One big reason for this is that the labor contracts have required so much in wages and benefits that there has been a lack of plant modernization across the industry. In contrast to other nations who have fostered plant modernization, yes: like Russia for instance.

Plum Creek has sold what it sold because they could make more money off that land than had they continued to manage it for timber. One of the big reasons for that is the cost of running a woods crew in Maine is disproportionately high for the yield per acre.
No, just look at the timing of when the paper companies began dumping their land. It was when the enviros' plans were all coming together with new regulations (Forest Practices Act), increased taxes, etc. Wages in ME are really quite low, that's not the reason. They got out because the government (state), under the influence of the radical environmentalist crowd, made it unprofitable. It was all quite intentional and planned by the enviro lobby. Out West they used the spotted owl and emotions around old growth trees to get their way.
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Old 11-10-2009, 07:53 PM
 
Location: The Woods
16,458 posts, read 21,499,103 times
Reputation: 8417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Maine Land Man View Post
The paper industry is not competitive in Maine because Augusta and G38 have made it impossible for a paper mill to own land profitably in Maine. As of now there is no such thing as "paper company land". All of it has been sold off at fire sale prices to the environmental industry and government. The good old days are over. Yes, you can still go bird hunting on the fringes of this land, but how far can you drag a moose by hand?

The econazis are circling for the kill. They started out with a goal of taking all the forested land in Maine. They have made very good progress. Just look up The Wildlands Project. It is the end of free enterprise in the woods and the end of a way of life. Several years ago I supported Jim Longley when he ran for office. After the election I was talking with his campaign scheduler. I told him that the reason Jim didn't do better in the North Country was that he didn't understand what the econazis were doing to us. Jim either didn't believe it or didn't understand it. I told the staffer that some greenie was going to enter private land to look for salamaders or something and when he came back out to the road he would find his Volvo upside down and on fire. The staffer was incredulous. He didn't understand either.

"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

About five years ago Plum Creek applied for a small development on 400,000 acres of land they own near Moosehead Lake. In return the company would put 11,000 acres into a conservation easement. It was a generous offer. The environmental industry went ballistic. Their most effective tool in Maine is LURC. They turned the tables on the landowner. After five years the Plum Creek plan was never approved. Instead the LURC plan was imposed on Plum Creek. The company would be allowed to develop 11,000 acres, but they would have to put 400,000 acres into conservation easements. This is expropriation of private property and something you might expect to see Hugo Chavez pull. Nope. It happened right here in Maine by the seven unelected political appointees who rule 52% of Maine.
Yep, looking up the wildlands project would pretty much reveal the entire agenda and what's in store if it's not stopped. The problem is, I think, many are asleep to the real motives behind these environmentalist groups. Any sane person would say it's absurd, what they want to do, but it's all true, and they're making major progress towards it. And they've learned to be covert about it. They created the closest thing to a rebellion of native VT'ers against the invasion of the fruits and nuts we ever had back when governor kunin proposed turning VT into a park, voted the flatlander out and elected a native VT'er (who unfortunately died in office and got us stuck with dean). When they were openly trying to take all of N. ME to do the same, they got beat back. They know to go about it carefully. Buy up land here and there as they can, destroy the economy with regulations and taxes to drive the people away, incrementalism accomplishes the goal in a way most don't notice until it's too late, you have to be looking for what they are up to, to find out...

It's truly a fight for our homes, our culture, our states, and in fact our very lives, for these extremists want to not only drive all us into a few urban areas, they are the same ilk who want to kill off most of the world's people...
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Old 11-11-2009, 05:51 AM
 
Location: Waldo County
1,220 posts, read 3,446,947 times
Reputation: 1393
Quote:
Originally Posted by arctichomesteader View Post
No, just look at the timing of when the paper companies began dumping their land. It was when the enviros' plans were all coming together with new regulations (Forest Practices Act), increased taxes, etc. Wages in ME are really quite low, that's not the reason. They got out because the government (state), under the influence of the radical environmentalist crowd, made it unprofitable. It was all quite intentional and planned by the enviro lobby. Out West they used the spotted owl and emotions around old growth trees to get their way.
Sorry. No. The issue is not wages, but benefits and the true costs of maintaining employees. Paper companies have many reasons for doing business, but most of them are for profit enterprises that must pay their stockholders dividends in order to maintain the flow of capital that enables them to hire employees, build and maintain buildings and to successfully process their raw materials into merchantable goods.

The cost of operating a business here in Maine is outrageous on a per capita basis. It is a combination of taxes, electrical rates, fuel costs and wages and employee compensation packages. Taking one area and blaming it for the demise of an industry is simplistic: Maine is a tough place to do business and has been growing more so for decades.

In the interim, the equipment in Maine's mills has become antiquated. Increases in foreign competition have steadily driven Maine's "traditional" industries away. Lower fuel costs and milder climates have driven the chicken processing industry south, lower wage and energy costs finished off Maine's shoe and textile industry many decades ago, and now the forest products business is being systematically killed off due to ALL the costs plus far more efficient foreign competition.

The real issue here is not whether or not we are allowed to hunt on private land, but that Maine as a state and economy has failed to find a new path for the prosperity of its people. This is a political, social, educational failure on the part of far too many people who have decided to cling to their memory of "the way it always was", instead of recognizing that time and civilizations change, and unless one changes and adapts, those changes will merely wash over and wipe away "the way it always was."

Maine has an enormous coastline with magnificent natural harbors. Are they being used? No. There have been numerous attempts at developing refining and container ports at Eastport and Sears Island. Have they been done? No.

Is this non-development a good thing. I think if you look at the oil rig that has been aflame off the northeastern coast of Austrailia recently, it would be easy to say that having a large source for potential environmental damage in Eastport isn't a good idea. But the overall benefit to the eastern portion of Maine would be dramatic if SOME purpose could be found for the port of Eastport.

So also Sears Island. That is a perfect place to have a container port, and the necessary development of infrastructure to support it could have a tremendously positive economic impact on all of the mid-coast of Maine. I doubt that we'll ever see it though, NOT because the environmental groups don't want it, but because a combination of environmental groups AND local residents don't want it.

And at the end of the day, the real issues are not environmental groups, conservationists, new residents unaccustomed to embracing "the way it alwas was", or granola types on Grandmother's trust fund. Rather it is a whole range of people of all types who are joining together to change the face of Maine into something else.

Here where I live a group of people who are the civilian army of Acadia National Park have bought a very large tract of old farm land that lies on Route 3 about fifteen miles from the entrance to Acadia National Park. On this land they are going to develop a $30 million welcome center for the park. In addition, they are going to develop a terminal and maintenance facility for the Island Explorer bus company that provides bus services to Mt Desert Island and Acadia National Park during the summer. The buses run on propane.

The town of Trenton was never asked if they wanted this. This will be the largest single development in the town and it will pay zero taxes to the Town that will have to support it with it volunteer fire department and lack of police and other services. It all began about fifteen years ago by a manipulation of then Congressman Baldacci and our illustrious Senator Snowe, frigging around in Washington and setting up the financial house of cards that would purchase the land and end up developing this behemoth: FIFTEEN miles from the entrance to Acadia National Park.

I attempted to organize group to oppose the purchase and development of this land. I called a town meeting, and paid for the letters to every land owner in Trenton. We had a meeting in the elementary school in April a few years ago....we had a good group of people turn out, many of whom knew nothing of this planned development. There appeared to be a considerable ground swell of support against this development.

There were petitions and efforts to develop a ground swell that could stop this sort of development in this town.

The MDOT came to Trenton and to Ellsworth and trotted out their grand plans on how they were going to fleese the town of "the way it always was" by the creation of this monument to Acadia National Park.

In the end, The Friends of Acadia, funded by many of the wealthy elite of Mt Desert Island's most expensive enclaves, bought the land. It will be turned over to the Department of the Interior who will "buy" it from the Friends of Acadia, and the development will happen.

Why? Basically because the people of Trenton who were against the development were unable to stop the development because the votes were just not there. Did we throw the selectment who stood by with their tumbs inserted, all the while saying that "officially" nothing was happening and therefore their hands were tied? NO. They were reelected.

Why wasn't it better to have the Welcome Center on Mt. Desert Island? Well, I dunno: most of the towns there didn't want it. Why not put it in Ellsworth, since that is a jumping off point for both Mt. Desert Island and downeast where there is another branch of Acadia National Park at Schoodic Point? (Ellsworth wanted it). In the end it came to Trenton because this is what was intended fifteen years ago.

Could this have been stopped? Yes, of course. The easiest way would have been for a group to buy the property from the company that owned it. They told us that they didn't care who they sold to, just that they were going to sell the land. Could the money be raised? A much better question is if the money was raised, and the land was bought what would have been done with it then?

I have had several email exchanges with people at the Natural Resources Council of Maine who keep sending me stuff about saving the trees. There was a lot of information about the Plumb Creek development around Moosehead, and I have said the same thing to them that I am saying now: there has been plenty of opportunity to buy and hold the land for the old uses, but at the end of the day it has always been easier to just assume that time and things in life will never change, and let someone else take care of it. We have come to rely on the "paper companies" to preserve our ability to use the woods, but when economic conditions changed and made it no longer viable for them, we now howl that it is so terribly unfair that if we shoot a moose three miles from where the truck was left, we will have to figure a way to haul it out without using the truck. Perhaps enough money could have been raised twenty-five, forty-five, sixty-five years ago to preserve the paper company lands for true, universal use without restriction. Perhaps, but it wasn't done then, and now it is far, far more expensive.

The simplest reading of human history shows a pattern of development and change. This is what is happening here. I doubt that the majority of Maine residents are anywhere near as worried about hunting and recreational access to the great north woods as they are about finding a way to feed their families and to pay for the medical services that that family will need.
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Old 11-11-2009, 08:13 AM
 
1,403 posts, read 3,055,616 times
Reputation: 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Maine Land Man View Post
Yes, you can still go bird hunting on the fringes of this land, but how far can you drag a moose by hand?
Out west they cut up elk in the field and either hump it out with backpacks or load a horse up.
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Old 11-11-2009, 08:22 AM
 
Location: The Woods
16,458 posts, read 21,499,103 times
Reputation: 8417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acadianlion View Post
Sorry. No. The issue is not wages, but benefits and the true costs of maintaining employees. Paper companies have many reasons for doing business, but most of them are for profit enterprises that must pay their stockholders dividends in order to maintain the flow of capital that enables them to hire employees, build and maintain buildings and to successfully process their raw materials into merchantable goods.

The cost of operating a business here in Maine is outrageous on a per capita basis. It is a combination of taxes, electrical rates, fuel costs and wages and employee compensation packages. Taking one area and blaming it for the demise of an industry is simplistic: Maine is a tough place to do business and has been growing more so for decades.

In the interim, the equipment in Maine's mills has become antiquated. Increases in foreign competition have steadily driven Maine's "traditional" industries away. Lower fuel costs and milder climates have driven the chicken processing industry south, lower wage and energy costs finished off Maine's shoe and textile industry many decades ago, and now the forest products business is being systematically killed off due to ALL the costs plus far more efficient foreign competition.

The real issue here is not whether or not we are allowed to hunt on private land, but that Maine as a state and economy has failed to find a new path for the prosperity of its people. This is a political, social, educational failure on the part of far too many people who have decided to cling to their memory of "the way it always was", instead of recognizing that time and civilizations change, and unless one changes and adapts, those changes will merely wash over and wipe away "the way it always was."
Family of mine who worked for paper companies until the 90's weren't really getting much. Some of them are still logging in ME too, they aren't getting a whole lot doing that either. Benefits or pay. The real problem is found in the politicians running the state into the ground, catering to invaders in the Southern parts from the socialist states who want to turn the state into their playground or social experiment, and outside special interest groups with a very nasty agenda for the state and people. Why would a company want to operate where they know they are under siege like that? Simple answer: they wouldn't. I think the combination of the forest practices act and higher taxes were really the straw that broke the camel's back. The last straw.



Quote:
And at the end of the day, the real issues are not environmental groups, conservationists, new residents unaccustomed to embracing "the way it alwas was", or granola types on Grandmother's trust fund. Rather it is a whole range of people of all types who are joining together to change the face of Maine into something else.
What's happening in ME is really just what happened to VT from the 60's through the 80's. It's taking longer but it's slowly working its way North. The problem is they have the population centers just like the invaders did in VT. The Northeast Kingdom of VT where I'm from is still full of real VT'ers but it's no good when we have Burlington, Brattleboro and Montpelier against us. My family had to give in and sell off the family farm that had been settled when VT was an independent country because of those scum making it impossible to stay afloat. Hit the family with so many environmental regulations, etc., in the 70's, everyone had enough. It's really up to the people to decide if they want that to happen to them in ME too and if not, to fight it off.

Quote:
Here where I live a group of people who are the civilian army of Acadia National Park have bought a very large tract of old farm land that lies on Route 3 about fifteen miles from the entrance to Acadia National Park. On this land they are going to develop a $30 million welcome center for the park. In addition, they are going to develop a terminal and maintenance facility for the Island Explorer bus company that provides bus services to Mt Desert Island and Acadia National Park during the summer. The buses run on propane.

The town of Trenton was never asked if they wanted this. This will be the largest single development in the town and it will pay zero taxes to the Town that will have to support it with it volunteer fire department and lack of police and other services. It all began about fifteen years ago by a manipulation of then Congressman Baldacci and our illustrious Senator Snowe, frigging around in Washington and setting up the financial house of cards that would purchase the land and end up developing this behemoth: FIFTEEN miles from the entrance to Acadia National Park.

I attempted to organize group to oppose the purchase and development of this land. I called a town meeting, and paid for the letters to every land owner in Trenton. We had a meeting in the elementary school in April a few years ago....we had a good group of people turn out, many of whom knew nothing of this planned development. There appeared to be a considerable ground swell of support against this development.

There were petitions and efforts to develop a ground swell that could stop this sort of development in this town.

The MDOT came to Trenton and to Ellsworth and trotted out their grand plans on how they were going to fleese the town of "the way it always was" by the creation of this monument to Acadia National Park.

In the end, The Friends of Acadia, funded by many of the wealthy elite of Mt Desert Island's most expensive enclaves, bought the land. It will be turned over to the Department of the Interior who will "buy" it from the Friends of Acadia, and the development will happen.

Why? Basically because the people of Trenton who were against the development were unable to stop the development because the votes were just not there. Did we throw the selectment who stood by with their tumbs inserted, all the while saying that "officially" nothing was happening and therefore their hands were tied? NO. They were reelected.

Why wasn't it better to have the Welcome Center on Mt. Desert Island? Well, I dunno: most of the towns there didn't want it. Why not put it in Ellsworth, since that is a jumping off point for both Mt. Desert Island and downeast where there is another branch of Acadia National Park at Schoodic Point? (Ellsworth wanted it). In the end it came to Trenton because this is what was intended fifteen years ago.
That sort of insanity is the SOP of these politicians and the national park crowd. They don't represent the people at all. Out West you'll see many instances where they intentionally took so much of the tax base away from towns, they just dry up and then the NPS gets to take the rest too. States can refuse to grant permission to the feds to buy the property.


Quote:
I doubt that the majority of Maine residents are anywhere near as worried about hunting and recreational access to the great north woods as they are about finding a way to feed their families and to pay for the medical services that that family will need.
Quite true, this goes well beyond hunting access but that is generally the first sign of the misery to come when these extremists get their way, because if these people get their way as they already are ME will be precisely in the same situation VT is in now after being taken over by these nuts: a rich man's playground, almost no real jobs. If the burdensome regulations and taxes created by these enemies of the people wer eeliminated, ME's wood resources would be able to provide many decent jobs.
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