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Old 11-11-2009, 09:01 AM
 
Location: Waldo County
1,220 posts, read 3,448,989 times
Reputation: 1393

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Quote:
Originally Posted by arctichomesteader View Post
If the burdensome regulations and taxes created by these enemies of the people wer eeliminated, ME's wood resources would be able to provide many decent jobs.
The taxes and regulations are really burdensome only to those without the means of paying them.

This nation has become one large urban culture. Those of us who live in rural areas are no longer in the mainstream, and what we regard as open space is now regarded as something that NEEDS either development or management by those from the urban areas.

Throwing terms around like "socialist" and "commie" and "liberal" and "conservative" and "environazi" isn't really helpful, and technically, it isn't even accurate either. The real fact is that our culture has changed and will not be going back to the way it was.

The same issues can be raised about having zoning in towns. No clearer example of the problems with no zoning are what happened when a guy came along and bought up a large piece of Blue Hill. The town had been offered the same parcel but couldn't figure out why it should buy something that had always been there. When the new owner decided to subdivide the hillside there was an horrendous raising of wailing and moaning, AND private meetings with elected officials. The new owner had a smoking gun, and the illegal activieites of the town became fodder for a massive lawsuit that the town couldn't afford and shouldn't have had to afford either. Some simple planning and simpler zoning could have saved the town and its taxpayers a very large amount of money.

We need to understand where we are in time and space as a culture and like it or not, plan for it to the best of our ability before things have changed out from underneath us. If we want to preserve something the way we think we want to preserve it, then we need to do it before someone rearranges things the way THEY want it.

My family roots are here and have been here for a long time, but I am not from here myself. I came here of my own volition and have decided that I want to live here despite the fact that there are so many advantages of "modern civilization" that can't be found anywhere in this state. This is my choice.

If moneyed powers from away want to come to Maine and make muc of it a preserved area, then in general I have no reservations about the concept. The days when Maine is going to provide all of the wood products that can be used in a developing America are gone. Those people who own the land will not decide what it is that they wish to do with it. It is their right, and unless it is considered a good thing to revoke a land owner's right to access and use his land as he chooses, I think this is the way it should be.

What I disagree with is that Maine people can't seem to make good decisions consistently about what they want to do with their state. We wail and moan about how Portland and Cumberland County has too much power over the rest of the state, but I see no real leadership emerging from the rest of the state that can provide the kind of direction that Maine needs to go in either.

There is a chronic absense of leadership in Maine, and where there is a leadership vacuum, OTHER leaders will rush in a take control if it suits them.

If holding back the active movement of conservation and sterilization of Maine's forested lands is a good thing, where is the leadership that galvanizes this opposition? Where is the persuasion of Maine's population that places pressure on the legislature and counters the so-called, and highly rumored "special interest" groups?

The simple answer and the only one that I have seen consistently over the nearly forty years that I have been here full time, is that this leadership doesn't exist and the consistent interest in the issue doesn't exist either.

Last edited by Acadianlion; 11-11-2009 at 09:11 AM..
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Old 11-11-2009, 09:35 AM
 
1,594 posts, read 3,412,448 times
Reputation: 1092
Quote:
Originally Posted by arctichomesteader View Post
No, just look at the timing of when the paper companies began dumping their land. It was when the enviros' plans were all coming together with new regulations (Forest Practices Act), increased taxes, etc. Wages in ME are really quite low, that's not the reason. They got out because the government (state), under the influence of the radical environmentalist crowd, made it unprofitable. It was all quite intentional and planned by the enviro lobby. Out West they used the spotted owl and emotions around old growth trees to get their way.
Sorry, AH, but Acadianlion is correct. The paper companies began selling their land back in the 1980s and 1990s when they were acquired by large conglomerates and buy and divide raiders like Gold. Brown Paper, Great Northern, IP, all of those companies were forced to sell their timber lands not because of enviro groups but because the new owners wanted the cash the sales would raise. Remember, this was the era when a company would be bought by some corporate raider and sold off in pieces, because the pieces were worth more than the whole. The paper companies were undervalued in the market and thus ripe targets for corporate raiders. I was involved in the periphery of some of that action as an "interested observer," shall we say, and the old owners would have been mortified at what was happening to the companies and the land they had nurtured for more than a century in Maine.

Most of the land was bought by investors and pension funds that required a certain return on their investments. They couldn't afford the long-term approach that the paper companies had taken. I remember a Millinocket resident telling me a few years back that when timberland began selling for more than $250 an acre, that was the end of its use as timberland. Under that amount, you can manage it for pulp and lumber and still make money. Over that amount, and you need to develop it into recreational and residential uses.

That's why Plum Creek came to Maine. No matter what they say, Plum Creek is NOT a timber company. It's a development company, and always has been.

BTW, the AMC & Co. hold conservation easements on the Plum Creek land that prevent it from being developed; the money they paid Plum Creek was the difference between its timber value and development value. The land is still being used for pulp and lumber cutting, and still taxed as forestland. IN terms of tax income, neither the state nor the counties lost any money on the deal. I believe AMC does own some land outright in the Moosehead region. I don't know what the taxable status of that it. Depends on how the purchase was structured and how the land is being used. That's probably the land where roads are being closed. The Plum Creek conservation land has to remain open to logging, so the roads are still in place.

Last edited by Coaster; 11-11-2009 at 09:48 AM..
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Old 11-11-2009, 09:46 AM
 
1,594 posts, read 3,412,448 times
Reputation: 1092
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acadianlion View Post
This is just flat incorrect. The reason the paper companies are selling off assets in Maine is because the paper industry is not really competitive here in Maine. One big reason for this is that the labor contracts have required so much in wages and benefits that there has been a lack of plant modernization across the industry. In contrast to other nations who have fostered plant modernization, yes: like Russia for instance.

Plum Creek has sold what it sold because they could make more money off that land than had they continued to manage it for timber. One of the big reasons for that is the cost of running a woods crew in Maine is disproportionately high for the yield per acre.
True up to a point. All basic manufacturing in the United States is in the same boat -- it's cheaper to do it overseas. Newsprint from Indonesia is cheaper in New York than newsprint from a mill in Maine because production costs are so much lower overseas and transportation costs are so cheap. That same rule applies to everything from tools to computers. We've exported our manufacturing base to China, Mexico, Vietnam, and elsewhere. Maine once produced shoes, textiles, clothing, machined goods, all sorts of stuff. Those factories are now mostly empty, and the clothing labels say "Made in Dominica."
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Old 11-11-2009, 09:56 AM
 
Location: The Woods
16,459 posts, read 21,517,295 times
Reputation: 8417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acadianlion View Post
The taxes and regulations are really burdensome only to those without the means of paying them.

This nation has become one large urban culture. Those of us who live in rural areas are no longer in the mainstream, and what we regard as open space is now regarded as something that NEEDS either development or management by those from the urban areas.
Well, actually, most of the country is still rural. But the power is in the hands of the urban areas, partly a result of the federal government growing so powerful, partly I think, mechanization of farming (so there's less people needed in rural areas now, shifting more power to the cities). There's not much a state like MT, ID, WY, SD, ND, AK, ME, VT, etc., can do to stop urban elites from MA, NYC, etc., when they want to throw everyone off their land, because the states have stood by and not stood up to them, and as a result, are nearly powerless to stop it now.

I'm not entirely sure what the answer really is to the problem. Maybe secession, but the power-thirsty would seek to use force to hold onto us.

Quote:
My family roots are here and have been here for a long time, but I am not from here myself. I came here of my own volition and have decided that I want to live here despite the fact that there are so many advantages of "modern civilization" that can't be found anywhere in this state. This is my choice.
I have no desire to live in the urban states either even though I could certainly make considerably more money and have more "conveniences" in a place like NYC or such than any rural state.


Quote:
If moneyed powers from away want to come to Maine and make muc of it a preserved area, then in general I have no reservations about the concept. The days when Maine is going to provide all of the wood products that can be used in a developing America are gone. Those people who own the land will not decide what it is that they wish to do with it. It is their right, and unless it is considered a good thing to revoke a land owner's right to access and use his land as he chooses, I think this is the way it should be.
You may want to rethink that, as their goal is to drive you away as well. Their goal is to see all of us stuffed in cities, driven off the land, and eventually most of us killed off. I know this probably sounds crazy but it's the truth, and some powerful people are backing these groups.

I don't think you could at all say that selling that conservation right to AMC was what the landowner really wanted. They were forced to do so because the environmentalists and the politicians they have in their pockets, made it impossible for them to do what they actually wanted to do.


Quote:
What I disagree with is that Maine people can't seem to make good decisions consistently about what they want to do with their state. We wail and moan about how Portland and Cumberland County has too much power over the rest of the state, but I see no real leadership emerging from the rest of the state that can provide the kind of direction that Maine needs to go in either.

There is a chronic absense of leadership in Maine, and where there is a leadership vacuum, OTHER leaders will rush in a take control if it suits them.

If holding back the active movement of conservation and sterilization of Maine's forested lands is a good thing, where is the leadership that galvanizes this opposition? Where is the persuasion of Maine's population that places pressure on the legislature and counters the so-called, and highly rumored "special interest" groups?

The simple answer and the only one that I have seen consistently over the nearly forty years that I have been here full time, is that this leadership doesn't exist and the consistent interest in the issue doesn't exist either.
Same problem was here in VT when the state was taken over. I think the issue is, most of those who don't want these groups to take over the state, are either too busy working, making a living, to get involved in politics full time, or simply aren't the political type. By the time we got some leadership in VT amongst the native VT'ers, it was already too late to do anything, and even at the beginning it was done poorly (the Take Back Vermont campaign made some pretty bad moves, from a political standpoint, when it started up, like smashing a car to pieces they bought that belonged to a socialist politician in the capitol). When the whole thing started back in the 60's, the state was mostly working class and farmers and no one had time to start a political lobbying group against hippies coming in who were seen as stupid anyways. Big mistake. They went into politics to get what they want, us VT'ers had our state taken out from under us because no one got up to lead a movement against it.
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Old 11-11-2009, 10:42 AM
 
Location: Northern Maine
9,532 posts, read 14,339,456 times
Reputation: 9027
Acadianlion is correct on several points. Those working for rural cleansing in Maine have indeed been successful. They are circling for the kill. Our way of life in Northern Maine is nearly gone. The towns of Trenton and Drew are good examples.

Environmental organizations get federal grants of our tax dollars. They buy up prime properties. They they sell those same properties to the federal government. The greenies get the grant, buy the land and sell the land to the feds for even more money. No wonder an NGO like The Nature Conservancy has a budget of over $2,000,000 a DAY!

I know they pack elk out of the woods on horses out west, but horses are not allowed in the North Maine Woods or on most of the lands the paper companies were forced to sell. Once again, how far can you drag a moose? I had all I could do just to turn mine over.

Back to Drew. Augusta has so much money that they bought half the town of Drew. That's about 12,000 acres. Augusta doesn't pay taxes to towns for the land they take so the townspeople and other remaining landowners must take up the slack. In essence the taxes in Drew doubled in one year. It sure makes Drew property a tough sell for those seeking to flee.

The environazis call it checkerboarding when they buy up key pieces of productive land. They know that if they can kill economic opportunity, close schools and deny services that families will be forced to leave. Then, when towns run out of people willing and able to fill town government positions, those towns deorganize or attempt to do so. Drew tried to deorganize, but Augusta refused to allow it. They just want to drive property values down until they can buy the rest of the town. The difference between worth less and worthless is just one tap of the space bar.

The recent map in the Bangor Daily News could be used for many issues. All those towns shown in green are essentially the same towns that voted to save our schools and preserve local control. Such ideas are not compatible with the new order Augusta envisions for us. What Augusta does not realize is that some of us will not go quietly. What they are doing to us is unconstitutional. Many in our country took an oath to support and defend our Constitution against all enemies, both foreign and domestic. Those people could be called oath takers. When their employment or service was completed many of them soon forgot the oaths they took.

There is a separate group who did not forget. They are the oath keepers. We hold our oaths to be a sacred obligation to which we pledged our lives our fortunes and our sacred honor, just as the patriots of old did before 1776. They are the Oathkeepers.

OATH KEEPERS: ORDERS WE WILL NOT OBEY

1. We will NOT obey orders to disarm the American people.
2. We will NOT obey orders to conduct warrantless searches of the American people
3. We will NOT obey orders to detain American citizens as “unlawful enemy combatants” or to subject them to military tribunal.
4. We will NOT obey orders to impose martial law or a “state of emergency” on a state.
5. We will NOT obey orders to invade and subjugate any state that asserts its sovereignty.
6. We will NOT obey any order to blockade American cities, thus turning them into giant concentration camps.
7. We will NOT obey any order to force American citizens into any form of detention camps under any pretext.
8. We will NOT obey orders to assist or support the use of any foreign troops on U.S. soil against the American people to “keep the peace” or to “maintain control."
9. We will NOT obey any orders to confiscate the property of the American people, including food and other essential supplies.
10.We will NOT obey any orders which infringe on the right of the people to free speech, to peaceably assemble, and to petition their government for a redress of grievances.

Then there are the "Threepers". During our Revolution there were just three percent who actually took up arms against the Redcoats. Those three percent were supported by ten percent of the population. Another twenty percent liked the idea of freedom, but did not take an active part. It was the three percent who earned our freedom.

In today's military, police, fire services and government service there are still three percent who support and defend our Constitution. They will not yield.

The Doctrine of the Three Percent:

We will not disarm.

You cannot convince us.

You cannot intimidate us.

You can try to kill us, if you think you can.

But remember, we'll shoot back.

And we are not going away.

Your move.

As things begin to spin out of control, remember this:
"All politics in this country now is just dress rehearsal for civil war." -- Billy Beck, August 2009.

With credit to Buffalo Springfield,
"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

Don't worry about your friends and neighbors the Oathkeepers. They will not fire the first shot, but they sure will shoot back.

The environazis are circling for the kill. They like to quote Leon Panetta who said, "Stroke of the pen; law of the land; Heck of a deal."

Psssssst. A stoke of the open isn't going to get it done for them. People like Acadianlion know not what they face.

- - -

This post is particularly appropriate on this Veteran's Day..
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Old 11-11-2009, 11:02 AM
 
8,760 posts, read 16,133,046 times
Reputation: 3486
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Maine Land Man View Post
Acadianlion is correct on several points. Those working for rural cleansing in Maine have indeed been successful. They are circling for the kill. Our way of life in Northern Maine is nearly gone. The towns of Trenton and Drew are good examples.

Environmental organizations get federal grants of our tax dollars. They buy up prime properties. They they sell those same properties to the federal government. The greenies get the grant, buy the land and sell the land to the feds for even more money. No wonder an NGO like The Nature Conservancy has a budget of over $2,000,000 a DAY!

I know they pack elk out of the woods on horses out west, but horses are not allowed in the North Maine Woods or on most of the lands the paper companies were forced to sell. Once again, how far can you drag a moose? I had all I could do just to turn mine over.

Back to Drew. Augusta has so much money that they bought half the town of Drew. That's about 12,000 acres. Augusta doesn't pay taxes to towns for the land they take so the townspeople and other remaining landowners must take up the slack. In essence the taxes in Drew doubled in one year. It sure makes Drew property a tough sell for those seeking to flee.

The environazis call it checkerboarding when they buy up key pieces of productive land. They know that if they can kill economic opportunity, close schools and deny services that families will be forced to leave. Then, when towns run out of people willing and able to fill town government positions, those towns deorganize or attempt to do so. Drew tried to deorganize, but Augusta refused to allow it. They just want to drive property values down until they can buy the rest of the town. The difference between worth less and worthless is just one tap of the space bar.

The recent map in the Bangor Daily News could be used for many issues. All those towns shown in green are essentially the same towns that voted to save our schools and preserve local control. Such ideas are not compatible with the new order Augusta envisions for us. What Augusta does not realize is that some of us will not go quietly. What they are doing to us is unconstitutional. Many in our country took an oath to support and defend our Constitution against all enemies, both foreign and domestic. Those people could be called oath takers. When their employment or service was completed many of them soon forgot the oaths they took.

There is a separate group who did not forget. They are the oath keepers. We hold our oaths to be a sacred obligation to which we pledged our lives our fortunes and our sacred honor, just as the patriots of old did before 1776. They are the Oathkeepers.

OATH KEEPERS: ORDERS WE WILL NOT OBEY

1. We will NOT obey orders to disarm the American people.
2. We will NOT obey orders to conduct warrantless searches of the American people
3. We will NOT obey orders to detain American citizens as “unlawful enemy combatants” or to subject them to military tribunal.
4. We will NOT obey orders to impose martial law or a “state of emergency” on a state.
5. We will NOT obey orders to invade and subjugate any state that asserts its sovereignty.
6. We will NOT obey any order to blockade American cities, thus turning them into giant concentration camps.
7. We will NOT obey any order to force American citizens into any form of detention camps under any pretext.
8. We will NOT obey orders to assist or support the use of any foreign troops on U.S. soil against the American people to “keep the peace” or to “maintain control."
9. We will NOT obey any orders to confiscate the property of the American people, including food and other essential supplies.
10.We will NOT obey any orders which infringe on the right of the people to free speech, to peaceably assemble, and to petition their government for a redress of grievances.

Then there are the "Threepers". During our Revolution there were just three percent who actually took up arms against the Redcoats. Those three percent were supported by ten percent of the population. Another twenty percent liked the idea of freedom, but did not take an active part. It was the three percent who earned our freedom.

In today's military, police, fire services and government service there are still three percent who support and defend our Constitution. They will not yield.

The Doctrine of the Three Percent:

We will not disarm.

You cannot convince us.

You cannot intimidate us.

You can try to kill us, if you think you can.

But remember, we'll shoot back.

And we are not going away.

Your move.

As things begin to spin out of control, remember this:
"All politics in this country now is just dress rehearsal for civil war." -- Billy Beck, August 2009.

With credit to Buffalo Springfield,
"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

Don't worry about your friends and neighbors the Oathkeepers. They will not fire the first shot, but they sure will shoot back.

The environazis are circling for the kill. They like to quote Leon Panetta who said, "Stroke of the pen; law of the land; Heck of a deal."

Psssssst. A stoke of the open isn't going to get it done for them. People like Acadianlion know not what they face.

- - -

This post is particularly appropriate on this Veteran's Day..
I'd rep you but I have to spread it around some! Great post and very true. People will only take so much before they strike back. We're seeing the grumblings of this beginning now. When we meet that impass there could be a fight....it's brewing even now. They thought it could never happen back in the 1860's too. When the country divides down the middle as it has now something will have to give to swing the balance of power one way or the other. If 50% feel they are being ignored they will begin to get angry. The recent town hall meetings are a good example. Read some pre Civil War history to see the parallels between the North and South and the divides we have here today.

Last edited by Maineah; 11-11-2009 at 11:14 AM..
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Old 11-11-2009, 11:18 AM
 
Location: The Woods
16,459 posts, read 21,517,295 times
Reputation: 8417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maineah View Post
I'd rep you but I have to spread it around some! Great post and very true. People will only take so much before they strike back. We're seeing the grumblings of this beginning now. When we meet that impass there could be a fight....it's brewing even now. They thought it could never happen back in the 1860's too. When the country divides down the middle as it has now something will have to give to swing the balance of power one way or the other. If 50% feel they are being ignored they will begin to get angry. The recent town hall meetings are a good example. Read some pre Civil War history to see the parallels between the North and South and the divides we have here today.
You're right, not everyone is asleep. I just remembered this article I read last month:

How the Beans of Egypt, Maine Sprouted a Militia | Second Vermont Republic (http://www.vermontrepublic.org/how_the_beans_of_egypt_maine_sprouted_a_militia - broken link)

But it will take considerably more to correct the problem.
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Old 11-11-2009, 11:38 AM
 
1,594 posts, read 3,412,448 times
Reputation: 1092
Quote:
I know they pack elk out of the woods on horses out west, but horses are not allowed in the North Maine Woods or on most of the lands the paper companies were forced to sell. Once again, how far can you drag a moose? I had all I could do just to turn mine over.
I'm sorry, but I've never heard of such a thing. People ride horses in the North Woods all the time. Do you have a citation?
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Old 11-11-2009, 03:36 PM
 
Location: Northern Maine
9,532 posts, read 14,339,456 times
Reputation: 9027
There are lots of terms used to describe our home; northern boreal forest, north Maine woods, Maine north woods, northern forest etc. I was speaking of the corporate North Maine Woods, the place with the gates and fees. I was not referring to Northern Maine as region of homes, farms and private wood lots where there are no gates and fees.

Where I live there are signs on private property:

"Welcome Sports
If your land is not posted or gated,
please use mine. If your land is
posted or gated, please use yours.
Thank you."

You can buy these signs at Smith's Store in Springfield.
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Old 11-12-2009, 06:07 AM
 
Location: God's Country, Maine
2,052 posts, read 3,980,297 times
Reputation: 1295
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coaster View Post
I'm sorry, but I've never heard of such a thing. People ride horses in the North Woods all the time. Do you have a citation?
Horses are forbidden in the Maine North Woods, as are most ATV's.
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