Establishing a vacation/hunting camp (lots of questions) (Caribou, Lincoln: real estate, leasing)

[deere110]

My wife and I are heading to Maine for the first time at the end of the month but we've fallen in love and are planning our trip for next year already! We're going to Mount Desert Island this time around, but want to head west next summer to rent a cabin on a lake. We've decided that we want to work toward a goal of establishing a camp that we can use for vacations in the summer and hunting in the fall/winter. Saving the money will certainly take a while which is fine because we'll need plenty of time to do our homework so that we can make an informed decision when the time comes. I'll break this up into topics so that it will be easier for folks to respond to specific points.

Location
We live in northwestern NJ and pretty much any location in Maine is within 13 hours of us (we are exactly 674 miles/11 hours 42 minutes from Caribou, ME, according to Google Maps), so we're open as far as locations go. What we are looking for is basically something secluded either with lake frontage or with a decent sized pond on the property. As long as its a body of water big enough to fish, swim, and canoe in it will fit our needs. As for the land itself, again, we're flexible, but we're active people who like to hike, ride ATVs, hunt, and shoot. Also, there would likely be four or five of us hunting at any given time, so enough space for that is important too. I would say we're looking for at least 15 acres but no more than 30. Being "near" things isn't really a concern of ours as anytime we visited we would bring everything we needed or it would be left there year to year (ie: pots and pans, etc...), and our primary reason for choosing Maine is to "get away." However, in the interest of a possible emergency or something of that nature it would be nice to be within 1 and 1/2 to 2 hours of some sort of town. It doesn't seem like this is too tough to do in Maine though. For example I just picked Rangely in Franklin County. You don't seem to have to go too far outside of the town in order to find lakes and ponds that are completely unsettled. Again, I'm just using that as an example-we're open to other locations if they fit our needs/price range better.

Municipal Government (Or the absence of)
At this point I should point out that I only know a little about unorganized territories. As I understand it unorganized territories are administered by the state which I'm assuming means that all land use ordinances, building permits/variances, property taxes, etc...are handled through the state. Does this make it easier or harder when it comes to building? Are there building codes? What are the taxes like? Are there basic requirements for vacation properties that are not used as a permanent residence? How about land use? Obviously things like wetlands areas and septics and wells are regulated, but what about other things?

Logistical questions
Another factor that is going to influence our decision is accessibility during different times of the year. From what I know about Maine so far the biggest obstacles to accessibility are mud and snow. I'm sure that this tends to vary with the region so let's hypothetically take Franklin County, which would be the Western Mountains and Lakes Region which tends to range in elevation between 1500 and 2000'. Assuming that I have four wheel drive, good tires, decent ground clearance, and chains, will I be able to get around in that area during deer season (November)? How about if we decided to spend time there between Christmas and New Years? Now for summer-when does mud season end? If we wanted or needed to get to the property during mud season would we be able to get there?

That's basically all I can think of for right now, but I'm sure that more questions will come out of this. I'd appreciate any feedback anyone can give me.

[Northern Maine Land Man]

You Rang? I have been in and around sporting camps and hunting camps since before WWII. You can still find what you want at reasonable prices. Maine is ATV friendly. There are thousands of miles of trails, mostly on private property. My town has most gravel roads open to ATVs.

A few decades ago Maine had laws favoring development of lots over 40 acres. There are many lots in the 40 to 45 acre range. Price per acre declines as the size of the lot increases.

About 15 years ago there were a whole lot of deer hunters stranded in the "North Maine Woods" when we had a 15 inch snowfall in the middle of November. Skidder crews ended up dragging pickups out to public roads because "Mother wants you home by Thanksgiving OR ELSE!"

That said, we rarely need chains. I run aggressive tread 10 ply tires year round and I have an 8000 pound winch that will pull from either end. I learned at a young age that you can't push with a winch.

Something to think about: The Western Mountains are steep. Would you rather be hunting steep terrain 20 years from now or more gentle terrain with bigger deer? I figure you will be in love with your camp and camps are not portable.

LURC territory properties pay lower taxes. It's a trade-off because LURC territory properties come with more restrictions.

[deere110]

Originally Posted by Northern Maine Land Man

You Rang? I have been in and around sporting camps and hunting camps since before WWII. You can still find what you want at reasonable prices. Maine is ATV friendly. There are thousands of miles of trails, mostly on private property. My town has most gravel roads open to ATVs.

You sound like just the guy I need to sit down and have a few beers with! Too bad I'm stuck down here in New Jersey. Do ATVs driven on public roads need to be registered/insured?

Originally Posted by Northern Maine Land Man

A few decades ago Maine had laws favoring development of lots over 40 acres. There are many lots in the 40 to 45 acre range. Price per acre declines as the size of the lot increases.

Thanks for pointing this out. 40 acres would be a dream come true if we can afford it.

Originally Posted by Northern Maine Land Man

About 15 years ago there were a whole lot of deer hunters stranded in the "North Maine Woods" when we had a 15 inch snowfall in the middle of November. Skidder crews ended up dragging pickups out to public roads because "Mother wants you home by Thanksgiving OR ELSE!"

I take it that much snow is not common for November?

Originally Posted by Northern Maine Land Man

That said, we rarely need chains. I run aggressive tread 10 ply tires year round and I have an 8000 pound winch that will pull from either end. I learned at a young age that you can't push with a winch.

Right now my daily driver is a 4x4 F-350 Powerstroke. I have my eyes out for an Excursion with a Powerstroke diesel specifically for trips back and forth to Maine. It's got the room and the towing capacity I would need plus I once it's lifted a few inches and outfitted with 35" mud terrain tires and a winch (I agree the front and rear models are the best) I should be able to handle the snow and the mud.

Originally Posted by Northern Maine Land Man

Something to think about: The Western Mountains are steep. Would you rather be hunting steep terrain 20 years from now or more gentle terrain with bigger deer? I figure you will be in love with your camp and camps are not portable.

Another good point!

Originally Posted by Northern Maine Land Man

LURC territory properties pay lower taxes. It's a trade-off because LURC territory properties come with more restrictions.

Now that I think about this it makes more sense. To someone like me "Unorganized Territory" sounds like less rules and less restrictions, but if the state is in charge of it all I could see how it could be just the opposite. Of course, I'm from New Jersey, one of the most heavily regulated places on earth, so I'd be interested to read more about the restrictions. Is there any kind of land use ordinance I can read online?

Thanks for taking the time to answer these questions-I just have one more. Based on your experience and what we're looking for, what region do you think would be the best place for us to concentrate our search? I'll summarize everything I've learned so far:

-Looking for 40-45 acres
-Hilly but not very steep terrain
-Preferably on water or with a pond on the property
-Not in unorganized territory

Do these criteria narrow it down to a specific region that we should concentrate on? When we go up to Mount Desert Island at the end of the month we'll have a few days where we haven't really planned anything, so if you can give me a region to look at we'll drive out there just to see what its like.

[AustinB]

Just a few answers to a couple of questions.


All atvs have to be registered, but you can't drive atvs on all roads.

All the towns don't have the same or even any land use ordinances. For instance, in my town, the only land use ordinance has to do with the state mandated shore land zoning. There is an ordinance for creating a business or adding on to one, but if you want to build, or add on to your house and it's not in a shore land zone... just do it.


Since you are coming up this way, I'd suggest checking out the Lincoln/Millinocket area.

[deere110]

Originally Posted by AustinB

Since you are coming up this way, I'd suggest checking out the Lincoln/Millinocket area.

Thanks for the suggestion. Millinocket certainly looks like it would be what we're looking for. I see that the center of town is only about 11 miles off of I-95 which makes the whole area very accessible for us (a 10 hour drive) and once again it doesn't seem like you have to go too far out of town in order to really be "away from it all." Can anybody recommend a good Maine real estate site so that I can get a feel for what kind of property is available there? We're definitely going to poke around the area a little as we're leaving Bar Harbor on Thursday, so I think we'll head straight for Millinocket that morning and maybe spend the night there.

[dmyankee]

Originally Posted by AustinB

Just a few answers to a couple of questions.


All atvs have to be registered, but you can't drive atvs on all roads.

All the towns don't have the same or even any land use ordinances. For instance, in my town, the only land use ordinance has to do with the state mandated shore land zoning. There is an ordinance for creating a business or adding on to one, but if you want to build, or add on to your house and it's not in a shore land zone... just do it.


Since you are coming up this way, I'd suggest checking out the Lincoln/Millinocket area.

Correctomundo!, Except for a pesky stretch of Pritham Ave. in Greenville. The plan is to make us the ATV capital of New England. I'm on the fence on that one.

Also plan to check out areas around Sebec Lake, Moosehead and Jackman. The Western mountain terrain is steeper and more prone to snow. There are still affordable parcels, houses and camps around, if you pound the 'pavement.'

There is ample access to water everywhere around here. Cross the street from my door yard, and its about 40 miles by boat to the head of the lake.

[Submariner]

Welcome to the forum, and to Maine

[Maineac]

Follow NMLM's advice. Patten Corp. did a lot of clearcut and subdivide years ago, and there ARE large 40+ acre parcels that can be had very reasonably that have grown back some since the late '80's. Hank MacPherson and Jack Campbell did one up by Jack's camps at Seboeis. NMLM would know about that.

Thing is, if there's any waterfront with any of those, it'll be common access. It's a tradeoff. Put together a strategically located "landing pad" on of them 40 acre chunks somewhere beween deer, bass, trout and salmon fishing. It'll save you in the long run. There's also leased lots, but your improvements are always at risk with the current year to year leasing schedules.

Google real estate in the areas that you're looking (like Lincoln, for example) and peruse the listings in the categories (camps, land) where you have interest. Heck, a nice, low-priced house in Millinocket fits some people's strategy and pocketbook. Puts you at the gateway to Baxter, the Allagash and points West.

[deere110]

Originally Posted by Maineac

Follow NMLM's advice. Patten Corp. did a lot of clearcut and subdivide years ago, and there ARE large 40+ acre parcels that can be had very reasonably that have grown back some since the late '80's. Hank MacPherson and Jack Campbell did one up by Jack's camps at Seboeis. NMLM would know about that.

Sure, I'd be interested to hear about those-paging NMLM! I'm assuming you're talking about this general area?

Originally Posted by Maineac

Thing is, if there's any waterfront with any of those, it'll be common access. It's a tradeoff. Put together a strategically located "landing pad" on of them 40 acre chunks somewhere beween deer, bass, trout and salmon fishing. It'll save you in the long run.

Could you clarify the common access issue? I'm imagining that it would be similar to owning a house on the ocean in that you have a parcel of land that overlooks the ocean, you can walk out to it, etc...but the actual shoreline up to mean high tide is a public beach that anyone can use. Is that how it works?

Originally Posted by Maineac

There's also leased lots, but your improvements are always at risk with the current year to year leasing schedules.

I've heard too many horror stories and will stay away from that route. We would want our camp to stay in the family for generations to come.

Originally Posted by Maineac

Google real estate in the areas that you're looking (like Lincoln, for example) and peruse the listings in the categories (camps, land) where you have interest. Heck, a nice, low-priced house in Millinocket fits some people's strategy and pocketbook. Puts you at the gateway to Baxter, the Allagash and points West.

I really think the Millinocket area may hold the most promise for us, provided there are still affordable lots that can be bought and not least. I made this map because I'm curious as to what towns are located in these areas or if it is all UT? Judging by the satellite photos around the various lakes there aren't very many areas that look developed at all, but could that be due to timber companies owning vast areas of it? For example, there seems to be nothing on the shores or around Pemadumcook Lake, and only a few cabins on the eastern shore of Ambajejus Lake.

[Northern Maine Land Man]

"Thanks for taking the time to answer these questions-I just have one more. Based on your experience and what we're looking for, what region do you think would be the best place for us to concentrate our search? I'll summarize everything I've learned so far:"

As to region, the best combination of all outdoor activities and price is Lincoln, north and east. The problem with Millinocket is that the vast lands north and west of Millinocket are closed to ATVs. It is an industrial forest and those giant logging trucks can't stop on a dime like a pickup can. Visitors unfamiliar with that fact will just get squashed flat like a toad crossing the road.

And, yes; Fifteen inches of snow in November is unusual, but I have seen it several times.

-Looking for 40-45 acres
-Hilly but not very steep terrain
-Preferably on water or with a pond on the property
-Not in unorganized territory"

Low cost waterfront property where you can swim went away some 40 years ago. Large lots where you where you can swim nearby are still available.