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About Wallace -- I never knew exactly what to make of him. The relationship between deep-south Black and White was/is more complicated than Hollywood would have us believe. In my opinion, it could be very disrespectful on a superficial level, while some genuine affection existed below the surface.
Another interesting character from that era was Theodore R. McKeldin, who served as both Governor of Maryland and Mayor of Baltimore (Republican, I think). He had a real old-timey oratory style, almost Victorian.
CelticViking don't you see an amusing contradiction? Like ScotchKorean- I don't really like Sunbursts, but that commercial cracked me up. It okay bud. Sorry for poking the bear. I started the argument and I shouldn't have, we kool I hope.
I feel for the merchants near the WV border when it comes to smokes. I live near the boarder too. I know a bunch of people that drive to WV to buy them. The tax is too high in MD, but from a statewide perspective I can see why it doesn't bother the politicians in Annapolis. The numbers in western MD just are high enough to justify any action- on a state level- despite your personal experiences or mine.
I'm in Washington county and the public schools here are pretty decent. In fact, most of the services here are either at par or above par. I've lived all over the state, including PG county, and western MD is pretty well off despite the stereotypes. I miss the bay, but I like it here.
PG county was one of the worst places I've ever lived in several ways- crime, poverty, congestion. I'd rather leave my favorite state (MD, if you can't tell ) than live in PG county again. I don't have a problem helping them out there with tax money- PG county sucks. That f- everyone but me is a little selfish, at least I think so. If I see someone choking on the street a block down, I'd like to think I would help them rather than say- "Well guess you should have voted republican and not eaten that walnut"., and just keep on walking.
Can I ask a question about Mahoney? What details does anyone remember? Do you still know the Mahoneys in B-more? I'm too young to remember Mahoney's gubernatorial campaign other than it existed- a 70's or early 80's campaign, I think. I'm both intrigued and excited he was mentioned in this thread. Baltimore history is interesting and rich. Any memories about Mahoney would be appreciated.
"Western Maryland is pretty well off despite the stereotypes" as said from a transplant to Washington County. I should just rest my case there on why people from the "real Western Maryland" get upset when we are lumped in with you guys.
Allegany and Garrett Counties are normally 2 of the bottom 3 counties for any and all income stats for the state. Allegany County has been bleeding population for 60 years, down from 89k in 1950 to about 65k (don't include prisoners) today. Oh, yeah, "we" are doing great says the Washington County transplant.
Allegany County had our FIRST high school built since WWII 3 years ago. Our other two highs schools were built in 1923 and 1940-something. Cumberland's two middle schools are in even worse shape, overcrowded, at least 50 years old. Come out here and tour around our community and our schools and tell me again that "we are pretty well off" and that PG and B-more deserve school construction money over us.
VWclassic does make an interesting point about the concept of "CelticViking". Weren't the Celts among the primary victims of Viking raids? I think CelticViking needs to continue to use this name as a testament to how if these two groups can make peaceful bedfellows, any two groups can get along! Perhaps that could lower some of the animosity in this discussion board.
In an attempt to bring back a civil discussion, O'Malley's politics certainly are left up to debate. That is the great thing about a democracy. However, please let's dispense with the liberal vs. conservative farce. I love the comparisons between the "ultra-liberal" Maryland and its more sensible "conservative" neighbor to the south, Virginia. In terms of alcohol sales, only the state of Virginia and their Alcoholic Beverage Commission (ABC) has the right to license and dispense (sell) hard liquor. That is definitely more socialist than anything Maryland has going on.
In terms of cigarette tax, yes Maryland's tax is much higher than it's neighboring states but the tax is set at $2.00--Alaska, Arizona, Maine, and Maryland have all set it at this rate. I don't see this as any partisan decision at all. It just seems as if some states want to set a standard rate. If West Virginia wants to set its alcohol and cigarette tax rates low to encourage people to drive out of their way to get these cheaper commodities, more power to them. West Virginians certainly have to drive out of their way, expending even more time and gas, to get better paying jobs in Maryland. And being that West Virginia has higher gas prices than Maryland (about 9 cents more per gallon), I just see that whole relationship of driving back and forth in search of cheaper commodities as a wash at best.
Accordingly, Roscoe Bartlett has been the Republican representative of Maryland's 6th congressional district since 1993. Maryland as a state has had a Republican governor (Ehrlich) during this tenure. The sixth district is comprised of the counties of Carroll, Frederick, Washington, Allegheny, and Garrett as well as a small part of Montgomery. Despite these areas being a vast majority Republican, irrespective of party affiliation Prince George's County has a larger population than the entire 6th district COMBINED. I think that it only makes sense that more state resources would be allocated to Prince George's County. Baltimore City of course is now smaller than the 6th district in terms of population due to continued losses since the 1950s but we are talking about the only major city in the state (90 square miles) versus the western third of Maryland. I don't think it is rational to say O'Malley is "ignoring" Western Maryland.
Marylanders are free to vote anyone of their choosing regardless of political party, majority rules in a democracy. But look at the past two Republican governors. Spiro T. Agnew was arguably one of the most corrupt politicians in modern American history. Perhaps Marylanders didn't vote for a Republican governor for two generations out of sheer embarrasment for being the state that produced the last American Vice-President to resign. Ehrlich? A "big industry" puppet who vetoed the "Wal-Mart bill" despite Wal-Mart being among the top ten largest employers in Garrett, Washington, and Carroll Counties (and no slouch in Frederick County at 12th). Fortunately the General Assembly was able to override the veto because when Wal-Mart doesn't pay any health benefits whatsoever, the state of Maryland's taxpayers pick up the tab. I don't see Maryland as having a "liberal" culture, just wisely selective in its statewide and national candidate selection, of which the majority come from the Democratic Party.
See above post for information about the sorry state of "Western Maryland's" public schools. Poverty is poverty, right? Old decripit schools are old decripit school, right? Why prioritize the Democratic voting poor counties over the Republican voting poor counties other than politics? I wonder if the bill would have been supported by all those PG and Baltimore representatives without the kickback to the PG and Baltimore City schools?
As for O'Malley ignoring Western Maryland. Here is the short list.
-O'Malley was at the Rocky Gap resort for a conference when 2 miners were trapped (and died) in a landslide about a 30 minute drive from where the governor was. He left the county without visiting the accident scene. Compare this to what the governors of PA and WV did when mine accidents happened in their states.
-O'Malley was supposed to be the keynote speaker at the Western Maryland (Allegany and Garrett) PACE reception in 2009. He faked sick and sent some lackey to give his speech instead.
-O'Malley has co-opted the phrase "One Maryland." It was originally used by former speaker Cas Taylor as a tax policy to help equalize economic development throughout the state. O'Malley now uses the term to justify most of these utiliterrean policies, "Moving forward as One Maryland" is code for "Shut up rural counties, you are in it with us whether you want to or not."
-Sales tax and vice tax KILL us in Western Maryland. It isn't just a small inconvience to go to WV to get cigs, or beer, it is literally right across the river from our major population and supposed commercial center, Cumberland. It is maybe an extra mile for me to cross the river to buy either.
So, yeah you can justify O'Malley's actions as the "Greatest good for the greatest number" if you want, but it is of no solace to me or my community. I can't imagine O'Malley EVER passing a bill that benefited the rest of the state, but screwed Baltimore City or PG. He plays politics first, governs second.
Last edited by westsideboy; 05-20-2011 at 02:37 PM..
See above post for information about the sorry state of "Western Maryland's" public schools. Poverty is poverty, right? Old decripit schools are old decripit school, right? Why prioritize the Democratic voting poor counties over the Republican voting poor counties other than politics? I wonder if the bill would have been supported by all those PG and Baltimore representatives without the kickback to the PG and Baltimore City schools?
As for O'Malley ignoring Western Maryland. Here is the short list.
-O'Malley was at the Rocky Gap resort for a conference when 2 miners were trapped (and died) in a landslide about a 30 minute drive from where the governor was. He left the county without visiting the accident scene. Compare this to what the governors of PA and WV did when mine accidents happened in their states.
-O'Malley was supposed to be the keynote speaker at the Western Maryland (Allegany and Garrett) PACE reception in 2009. He faked sick and sent some lackey to give his speech instead.
-O'Malley has co-opted the phrase "One Maryland." It was originally used by former speaker Cas Taylor as a tax policy to help equalize economic development throughout the state. O'Malley now uses the term to justify most of these utiliterrean policies, "Moving forward as One Maryland" is code for "Shut up rural counties, you are in it with us whether you want to or not."
-Sales tax and vice tax KILL us in Western Maryland. It isn't just a small inconvience to go to WV to get cigs, or beer, it is literally right across the river from our major population and supposed commercial center, Cumberland. It is maybe an extra mile for me to cross the river to buy either.
So, yeah you can justify O'Malley's actions as the "Greatest good for the greatest number" if you want, but it is of no solace to me or my community. I can't imagine O'Malley EVER passing a bill that benefited the rest of the state, but screwed Baltimore City or PG. He plays politics first, governs second.
As a resident of Washington County, I tend to agree with VWClassic. Our infrastructure (namely roads) are worn out and clogged by West Virginians, Pennsylvanians, and even Virginians. I see as many of these out-of-state license plates collectively as Maryland license plates. This a free market economy and people can take their dollars where they so choose. Washington and Montgomery Counties are the only two Maryland jurisdictions that offer property tax breaks to businesses. Washington County is being proactive to remain economically competitive so I'm not going to complain if other counties do not follow suit.
You can argue the politics of it but I call complete foul on any suggestion that somehow Western Maryland has historically been ignored:
"Casper R. Taylor, president of the Western Maryland Economic Development Task Force and former Speaker of the Maryland House of Delegates, says that I-68's existence makes "all the difference to a community that was caught in the Rust Belt." [10] He says that I-68 has helped to revitalize the region. Economic development initiatives commenced 15 years ago are now "coming into focus." Before I-68 was completed in 1991, Cumberland was among the few metropolitan statistical areas in the country that was not on the Interstate Highway System. The deputy director of Allegany County Economic Development says that "the community suffered substantial economic hardship," especially because site location consultants in the 1970s and '80s refused to consider locations not served by interstate highways. [11] As rail diminished in importance in freight logistics (Cumberland has a major maintenance shop on the CSX Railroad system), trucking and interstate highway proximity became crucial to production and distribution. As a result, western Maryland was "not on the map" when new facility sites were selected, he said."
"Freeway access has proven helpful to both manufacturing and service businesses. In early 2005, American Woodmark Corp. will open a cabinet assembly facility in the new Barton Business Park a few miles north of I-68 on U.S. 220. It plans to employ 300 workers by 2007. Telephone "call centers" have located facilities in western Maryland because I-68 allows personnel to travel quickly to and from Baltimore-Washington; managers are able to do business in both areas in a single day. Visiting a "back office" in western Maryland no longer requires an overnight stay. Although tourism/recreation has long been a staple of the Garrett County economy, the industry did not emerge in Allegany County until completion of I-68. Allegany County is roughly equidistant (a 2½ hour drive via I-68) from the Baltimore, Washington, and Pittsburgh metropolitan areas. [12] One symbol of the new industry's success is the Rocky Gap Lodge and Golf Club, which is within sight of I-68 at Exit 50. The Canal Place Heritage Area and Western Maryland Scenic Railway are among the projects that utilize the county's transportation history to boost tourism."
The federal government (including the Appalachian Regional Commission) went out of their way to create an interstate that passed through some of the least populated areas in Maryland and undermined the Pennsylvania Turnpike (I-76) Corridor and their revenue scheme just to spur economic development development in Western Maryland. This was a complete government giveway using taxpayer money that could have easily funded a complete ICC project in Montgomery and Prince George's County that is just now getting built, charges tolls unlike I-68, and was needed before anyone even thought of connecting Hancock to Morgantown. If anything I-68 is just as apt to suck development in out of West Virginia than vice-versa because of Maryland's superior educational system. Gee, wouldn't all impoverished counties want their own interstate, warranted or not?
Accordingly, perhaps the reason why Allegany County hasn't seen new school construction IS because the county has been bleeding population since the 1950s. Allegany is a geographically large county and is about to end the relationship where Little Orleans students are subsidized to attend Hancock district schools (Washington County). So there was actually a benefit to Allegany residents to decentralize and live on the periphery of the county so that Allegany could pay Washington County nearly $200,000 a year to educate only 50 students not to mention $400,000 a year lost to Allegany County in state education revenue. These are Allegany's decisions that they have brought upon themselves. I certainly don't agree with it but new schools are unfortunately prioritized for sprawling suburbs that bring in revenue. What goes for the schools of the decrepit "urban thugs" (as you put it) of Baltimore must also go for the "hillbillies" of Cumberland. Population loss is population loss.
VWClassic's comments were spot on. Washington County is not wealthy, it just tries to make the best with what it has. Every school cluster (save Boonsboro) has a free/reduced lunch population higher than the state average and even Boonsboro schools are hovering at 25%. Many schools in the Hagerstown clusters (even South Hagerstown High) have free/reduced lunch populations in excess of 50%. Yet Washington County continues to chug along despite County Commissioners best efforts to drain county funds by giving developers subsidies to, well, develop. If developers need incentives to develop then perhaps they should get out of the developing business! So I echo VWClassic's sentiment that as a resident of an entire state, resource allocation must go to the greater good which is why so many Marylanders work in one county but live in the next county over where housing is more affordable. On the eye test, it seems Washington County has more Frederick County Sheriff's Deputies living here than Frederick County!
But the Republican (yes, Republican) President of the Frederick County Board of Commissioners is making an attempt to stop the madness of giveways to big business. Blaine Young may be on his own on this one but hopefully a groundswell among the people saying enough is enough will sweep westward into Washington County. Why should the small businesses of downtown Frederick, Hagerstown, and Cumberland languish when they don't even require any new infrastructure where the infrastructure the size of a new downtown has to be built to support these big-box retailers?
With that being said, Washington County with the same loss of manufacturing jobs and high unemployment that Allegany has continues to survive, and if people leave Maryland to go get alcohol then they are coming to Hagerstown for the mall and everything else. I would like to see Allegany and Garrett Counties prosper, but the Republican ethos has been born out of Reagonomics. When the laid off autoworkers of Flint, MI asked Reagan for advice, he told them to move to places like Texas where there are jobs.
So as long as the conservative philosophy is to abandon your home for greener pastures and subsidize developers with tax paid giveaways to throw up new development rather than revitalize pre-existing infrastructure, I wouldn't expect Cumberland to prosper anytime soon. The people of Garrett County may have to commute 50 miles one way to Morgantown or the people of eastern Allegany may have to commute 50 miles one way to Hagerstown. I've had service people come to my home from as far away as Pittsburgh, Baltimore, and York, PA. So yes rural Maryland counties, I guess you are in it with the rest of us because in the world of Reaganomics, if you don't like it in Maryland just pick up and move!
As a resident of Washington County, I tend to agree with VWClassic. Our infrastructure (namely roads) are worn out and clogged by West Virginians, Pennsylvanians, and even Virginians. I see as many of these out-of-state license plates collectively as Maryland license plates. This a free market economy and people can take their dollars where they so choose. Washington and Montgomery Counties are the only two Maryland jurisdictions that offer property tax breaks to businesses. Washington County is being proactive to remain economically competitive so I'm not going to complain if other counties do not follow suit.
You can argue the politics of it but I call complete foul on any suggestion that somehow Western Maryland has historically been ignored:
"Casper R. Taylor, president of the Western Maryland Economic Development Task Force and former Speaker of the Maryland House of Delegates, says that I-68's existence makes "all the difference to a community that was caught in the Rust Belt." [10] He says that I-68 has helped to revitalize the region. Economic development initiatives commenced 15 years ago are now "coming into focus." Before I-68 was completed in 1991, Cumberland was among the few metropolitan statistical areas in the country that was not on the Interstate Highway System. The deputy director of Allegany County Economic Development says that "the community suffered substantial economic hardship," especially because site location consultants in the 1970s and '80s refused to consider locations not served by interstate highways. [11] As rail diminished in importance in freight logistics (Cumberland has a major maintenance shop on the CSX Railroad system), trucking and interstate highway proximity became crucial to production and distribution. As a result, western Maryland was "not on the map" when new facility sites were selected, he said."
"Freeway access has proven helpful to both manufacturing and service businesses. In early 2005, American Woodmark Corp. will open a cabinet assembly facility in the new Barton Business Park a few miles north of I-68 on U.S. 220. It plans to employ 300 workers by 2007. Telephone "call centers" have located facilities in western Maryland because I-68 allows personnel to travel quickly to and from Baltimore-Washington; managers are able to do business in both areas in a single day. Visiting a "back office" in western Maryland no longer requires an overnight stay. Although tourism/recreation has long been a staple of the Garrett County economy, the industry did not emerge in Allegany County until completion of I-68. Allegany County is roughly equidistant (a 2½ hour drive via I-68) from the Baltimore, Washington, and Pittsburgh metropolitan areas. [12] One symbol of the new industry's success is the Rocky Gap Lodge and Golf Club, which is within sight of I-68 at Exit 50. The Canal Place Heritage Area and Western Maryland Scenic Railway are among the projects that utilize the county's transportation history to boost tourism."
The federal government (including the Appalachian Regional Commission) went out of their way to create an interstate that passed through some of the least populated areas in Maryland and undermined the Pennsylvania Turnpike (I-76) Corridor and their revenue scheme just to spur economic development development in Western Maryland. This was a complete government giveway using taxpayer money that could have easily funded a complete ICC project in Montgomery and Prince George's County that is just now getting built, charges tolls unlike I-68, and was needed before anyone even thought of connecting Hancock to Morgantown. If anything I-68 is just as apt to suck development in out of West Virginia than vice-versa because of Maryland's superior educational system. Gee, wouldn't all impoverished counties want their own interstate, warranted or not?
Accordingly, perhaps the reason why Allegany County hasn't seen new school construction IS because the county has been bleeding population since the 1950s. Allegany is a geographically large county and is about to end the relationship where Little Orleans students are subsidized to attend Hancock district schools (Washington County). So there was actually a benefit to Allegany residents to decentralize and live on the periphery of the county so that Allegany could pay Washington County nearly $200,000 a year to educate only 50 students not to mention $400,000 a year lost to Allegany County in state education revenue. These are Allegany's decisions that they have brought upon themselves. I certainly don't agree with it but new schools are unfortunately prioritized for sprawling suburbs that bring in revenue. What goes for the schools of the decrepit "urban thugs" (as you put it) of Baltimore must also go for the "hillbillies" of Cumberland. Population loss is population loss.
VWClassic's comments were spot on. Washington County is not wealthy, it just tries to make the best with what it has. Every school cluster (save Boonsboro) has a free/reduced lunch population higher than the state average and even Boonsboro schools are hovering at 25%. Many schools in the Hagerstown clusters (even South Hagerstown High) have free/reduced lunch populations in excess of 50%. Yet Washington County continues to chug along despite County Commissioners best efforts to drain county funds by giving developers subsidies to, well, develop. If developers need incentives to develop then perhaps they should get out of the developing business! So I echo VWClassic's sentiment that as a resident of an entire state, resource allocation must go to the greater good which is why so many Marylanders work in one county but live in the next county over where housing is more affordable. On the eye test, it seems Washington County has more Frederick County Sheriff's Deputies living here than Frederick County!
But the Republican (yes, Republican) President of the Frederick County Board of Commissioners is making an attempt to stop the madness of giveways to big business. Blaine Young may be on his own on this one but hopefully a groundswell among the people saying enough is enough will sweep westward into Washington County. Why should the small businesses of downtown Frederick, Hagerstown, and Cumberland languish when they don't even require any new infrastructure where the infrastructure the size of a new downtown has to be built to support these big-box retailers?
With that being said, Washington County with the same loss of manufacturing jobs and high unemployment that Allegany has continues to survive, and if people leave Maryland to go get alcohol then they are coming to Hagerstown for the mall and everything else. I would like to see Allegany and Garrett Counties prosper, but the Republican ethos has been born out of Reagonomics. When the laid off autoworkers of Flint, MI asked Reagan for advice, he told them to move to places like Texas where there are jobs.
So as long as the conservative philosophy is to abandon your home for greener pastures and subsidize developers with tax paid giveaways to throw up new development rather than revitalize pre-existing infrastructure, I wouldn't expect Cumberland to prosper anytime soon. The people of Garrett County may have to commute 50 miles one way to Morgantown or the people of eastern Allegany may have to commute 50 miles one way to Hagerstown. I've had service people come to my home from as far away as Pittsburgh, Baltimore, and York, PA. So yes rural Maryland counties, I guess you are in it with the rest of us because in the world of Reaganomics, if you don't like it in Maryland just pick up and move!
So much to say....
1. Yes, they did built I-68. It was completely in 1990, it was built over a span of at least 10-15 years. This puts our "tax-payer giveaway" 20-30 years in the past. Quite a distant project to put forth as evidence that Western Maryland gets treated well by the state. I glad you bought all the positive PR spin about its positive effects in Allegany County in the news article you found. Living on I-68, and traveling its full length regularly, I can tell you Morgantown is the city to really benefit from I-68. It is now connected to the cities of the Eastern seaboard and has a N/S interstate connection as well. It is booming.
2. Not sure what the kids in Little Orleans have to do with this discussion at all. Our county generously pays Washington County so these kids can go to the closer Hancock school, just as Garrett Co. paid for kids in Finzel to go to Frostburg schools. Garrett Co. canceled their agreement because of $ issues, Allegany may do the same.
Again, I am not sure what point you are trying to make about "urban thugs" getting schools versus "hillbillies." I don't advocate the raised alcohol tax, never said I did. My beef is that the tax HURTS Western Maryland more than any other part of the state, yet we don't even get the benefits the tax is supposed to generate. It is completely justified for me to cry foul that the poor DEM areas are benefiting from a tax that hurts the poor GOP areas. That argument is simple and straight forward. Poor = Poor, you agree with me on that, so why not split the $$, if you need to tax at all, other than dirty DEM politics?
3. I don't know how long you have lived in Washington County, but you still don't understand the fundamental difference between us and you. Unemployment is high in Washington County because you have a large workforce! People that are "not looking for work" don't count in that stat. Cumberland has one of lowest %of population in the workforce in the country due to an aging population and people given up on working.
Washington County has been able to replace many of the manufacturing jobs with the opportunity to commute into communities where the big bucks and jobs are. It makes a huge difference. We can't do that here, we can't follow your model. Hagerstown is closer to Rockville than it is to Cumberland, always keep that in mind.
We are too far out to be in the commuter loop that you describe. Washington Co.'s commuters come from the much closer PA and WV towns, just like you mention, not from Western Maryland. There are some intrepet souls around here that make the commute, but not many. By necessity, Allegany County always ranks as the highest (or among) the MD highest counties in % of residents working in their home county, and shortest commute times.
Your justfication of the state's "greater good argument" on tax policy sounds like it is based on a "trickle down" commuter effect that Western Maryland is left out of because of geography. Oh well, sh_t on us again.
Washington County is a different place than Western Maryland, our economic and geographic differences are vast and when you and WVclassic try to compare the two, you might as well be comparing apples and oranges, but you are smart enough to know that.
4. Lastly, I don't know where you get your politics from, but it is clear that the only places in the US that still have manufacturing jobs are the states that are run by conservatives! It is leftist DEM states like Maryland that have run all of our industrial jobs off to the South. Was ole' Dutch really such a genius that he could do what you claim? Destroy the industrial economy, AND make sure it was the leftist DEM states that suffered the worst of it? He must have been quite a genius.....
You don't need to go back 20+ years in history to find your scapegoat, look at the elected government we have right now in this state and see how they compare to our neighbors on business friendly policies, LIKE TAXES! Not well, my friend, not well. That isn't Reagan's fault, it is O'Malley and his O'Lackeys.
Last edited by westsideboy; 05-21-2011 at 09:35 AM..
Who is looking for a scapegoat 20 years in the past? Alas, if only the rhetoric matched the reality. It's great that "Red States" contain most of the manufacturing jobs. So at least all of their revenues don't come from the ballooning debt: Red States Feed at Federal Trough, Blue States Supply the Feed
So I'm sure you are well aware of the red state status as being the true welfare queens, which is why I invoke Reagan because he is the one who coined the term (and then journalists and fact checkers attempted to locate this Cadillac-driving leech only to find that no such person, persons, or scenarios ever existed). I invoke Reagan because contemporary conservatives are still touting tax breaks for the wealthy as a panacea for the economy even though there is NO evidence that giving these tax breaks creates or destroys any more jobs that would not have ordinarily occurred without the tax breaks (this is why I applaud Blaine Young's stand against giving big business courtesies that are not extended to small business in Frederick County). If you choose to read it, I'll let this article serve as the response to what the "South" is doing.
I'm not here to debate politics with you because over time you have more than demonstrated you are deft at analyzing and interpreting overblown bureaucracy. That is why I offered no retort to your characterization of O'Malley. Personally I wouldn't have advised him to stand arm-in-arm with coal company executives after a MINING DISASTER for an "I Care" photo op, but that is my opinion just as you have yours. However, I'm actually surprised that you don't understand what relevance the kids of Little Orleans have to do with this discussion. I will let you ponder that, but for a county as downtrodden as Allegany, isn't nice to be attached to the state of Maryland? Or perhaps you see differently as West Virginia gets back $1.74 from the federal government for every $1 in taxes paid. Maybe it is better to be attached to West Virginia!
You keep attempting to drive this cultural wedge between Washington County and Allegany County based on distance to Baltimore where I find more commonalities with our adjacent neighbors to the west and in Pennsylvania and West Virginia. You say that Washington County benefits because it is large (not really) and it is within closer proximity to Baltimore. So cannot Little Orleans benefit from its closer proximity to Washington County? But I am not attempting to convince you to link hands with Washington County. You believe you are the true Western Maryland and the rest of Maryland treats you as the redheaded stepchild. So be it.
But when you say split the $$$, I'm just not sure what level of split you are advocating. But I think I made my case that the city of Baltimore and Prince George's County together account for almost ONE-FOURTH of the entire state's population. Allegany County has a population only 10,000 people larger than the city of Frederick, has the fifth lowest population density of any Maryland county, and has the lowest population growth of any Maryland county. Every county in the US within 50 miles of an interstate has grown in population while every county outside of 50 miles of interstate highway has declined in population. I-68 was built through Allegany and Garrett. To the best of my knowledge, US 40 is still there and is more than adequate to handle those counties' traffic demands. What greater expenditure on infrastructure can a county receive than an interstate highway, next to maybe an airport?
For as poor as Allegany County is, it has advantages with its interstate that many Rust Belt towns would beg to have. I would say a key advantage is being a component of the fourth wealthiest state in the union. However, you feel that Allegany is too peripheral to take advantage of the statewide infrastructure. I'm sure there are people on the Eastern Shore that feel the same way. Because I do not live in Allegany I respect your viewpoint. No one has the right to tell the victim how they should be perceived and what names they should be allowed to be called.
Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy
So much to say....
1. Yes, they did built I-68. It was completely in 1990, it was built over a span of at least 10-15 years. This puts our "tax-payer giveaway" 20-30 years in the past. Quite a distant project to put forth as evidence that Western Maryland gets treated well by the state. I glad you bought all the positive PR spin about its positive effects in Allegany County in the news article you found. Living on I-68, and traveling its full length regularly, I can tell you Morgantown is the city to really benefit from I-68. It is now connected to the cities of the Eastern seaboard and has a N/S interstate connection as well. It is booming.
2. Not sure what the kids in Little Orleans have to do with this discussion at all. Our county generously pays Washington County so these kids can go to the closer Hancock school, just as Garrett Co. paid for kids in Finzel to go to Frostburg schools. Garrett Co. canceled their agreement because of $ issues, Allegany may do the same.
Again, I am not sure what point you are trying to make about "urban thugs" getting schools versus "hillbillies." I don't advocate the raised alcohol tax, never said I did. My beef is that the tax HURTS Western Maryland more than any other part of the state, yet we don't even get the benefits the tax is supposed to generate. It is completely justified for me to cry foul that the poor DEM areas are benefiting from a tax that hurts the poor GOP areas. That argument is simple and straight forward. Poor = Poor, you agree with me on that, so why not split the $$, if you need to tax at all, other than dirty DEM politics?
3. I don't know how long you have lived in Washington County, but you still don't understand the fundamental difference between us and you. Unemployment is high in Washington County because you have a large workforce! People that are "not looking for work" don't count in that stat. Cumberland has one of lowest %of population in the workforce in the country due to an aging population and people given up on working.
Washington County has been able to replace many of the manufacturing jobs with the opportunity to commute into communities where the big bucks and jobs are. It makes a huge difference. We can't do that here, we can't follow your model. Hagerstown is closer to Rockville than it is to Cumberland, always keep that in mind.
We are too far out to be in the commuter loop that you describe. Washington Co.'s commuters come from the much closer PA and WV towns, just like you mention, not from Western Maryland. There are some intrepet souls around here that make the commute, but not many. By necessity, Allegany County always ranks as the highest (or among) the MD highest counties in % of residents working in their home county, and shortest commute times.
Your justfication of the state's "greater good argument" on tax policy sounds like it is based on a "trickle down" commuter effect that Western Maryland is left out of because of geography. Oh well, sh_t on us again.
Washington County is a different place than Western Maryland, our economic and geographic differences are vast and when you and WVclassic try to compare the two, you might as well be comparing apples and oranges, but you are smart enough to know that.
4. Lastly, I don't know where you get your politics from, but it is clear that the only places in the US that still have manufacturing jobs are the states that are run by conservatives! It is leftist DEM states like Maryland that have run all of our industrial jobs off to the South. Was ole' Dutch really such a genius that he could do what you claim? Destroy the industrial economy, AND make sure it was the leftist DEM states that suffered the worst of it? He must have been quite a genius.....
You don't need to go back 20+ years in history to find your scapegoat, look at the elected government we have right now in this state and see how they compare to our neighbors on business friendly policies, LIKE TAXES! Not well, my friend, not well. That isn't Reagan's fault, it is O'Malley and his O'Lackeys.
Maryland? Horse country, Preakness, the big Bay-Chesapeake, Island-Assateague, former tobacco country, seafood-crabs, nice beaches, mountain cities-Cumberland. North-south divide-Mason-Dixon. Wealthy Counties-Montgomery+ Highest black middle class nationwide. Washington Redskins (who also play in Landover, Maryland.
Who is looking for a scapegoat 20 years in the past? Alas, if only the rhetoric matched the reality. It's great that "Red States" contain most of the manufacturing jobs. So at least all of their revenues don't come from the ballooning debt: Red States Feed at Federal Trough, Blue States Supply the Feed
So I'm sure you are well aware of the red state status as being the true welfare queens, which is why I invoke Reagan because he is the one who coined the term (and then journalists and fact checkers attempted to locate this Cadillac-driving leech only to find that no such person, persons, or scenarios ever existed). I invoke Reagan because contemporary conservatives are still touting tax breaks for the wealthy as a panacea for the economy even though there is NO evidence that giving these tax breaks creates or destroys any more jobs that would not have ordinarily occurred without the tax breaks (this is why I applaud Blaine Young's stand against giving big business courtesies that are not extended to small business in Frederick County). If you choose to read it, I'll let this article serve as the response to what the "South" is doing.
I'm not here to debate politics with you because over time you have more than demonstrated you are deft at analyzing and interpreting overblown bureaucracy. That is why I offered no retort to your characterization of O'Malley. Personally I wouldn't have advised him to stand arm-in-arm with coal company executives after a MINING DISASTER for an "I Care" photo op, but that is my opinion just as you have yours. However, I'm actually surprised that you don't understand what relevance the kids of Little Orleans have to do with this discussion. I will let you ponder that, but for a county as downtrodden as Allegany, isn't nice to be attached to the state of Maryland? Or perhaps you see differently as West Virginia gets back $1.74 from the federal government for every $1 in taxes paid. Maybe it is better to be attached to West Virginia!
You keep attempting to drive this cultural wedge between Washington County and Allegany County based on distance to Baltimore where I find more commonalities with our adjacent neighbors to the west and in Pennsylvania and West Virginia. You say that Washington County benefits because it is large (not really) and it is within closer proximity to Baltimore. So cannot Little Orleans benefit from its closer proximity to Washington County? But I am not attempting to convince you to link hands with Washington County. You believe you are the true Western Maryland and the rest of Maryland treats you as the redheaded stepchild. So be it.
But when you say split the $$$, I'm just not sure what level of split you are advocating. But I think I made my case that the city of Baltimore and Prince George's County together account for almost ONE-FOURTH of the entire state's population. Allegany County has a population only 10,000 people larger than the city of Frederick, has the fifth lowest population density of any Maryland county, and has the lowest population growth of any Maryland county. Every county in the US within 50 miles of an interstate has grown in population while every county outside of 50 miles of interstate highway has declined in population. I-68 was built through Allegany and Garrett. To the best of my knowledge, US 40 is still there and is more than adequate to handle those counties' traffic demands. What greater expenditure on infrastructure can a county receive than an interstate highway, next to maybe an airport?
For as poor as Allegany County is, it has advantages with its interstate that many Rust Belt towns would beg to have. I would say a key advantage is being a component of the fourth wealthiest state in the union. However, you feel that Allegany is too peripheral to take advantage of the statewide infrastructure. I'm sure there are people on the Eastern Shore that feel the same way. Because I do not live in Allegany I respect your viewpoint. No one has the right to tell the victim how they should be perceived and what names they should be allowed to be called.
Let's refine our focus a little bit here away from the national scene. I am no tool of the GOP, nor do I shy away from good candidates just because they have a "D" by their name. The political partisanship I feel isn't national where all politicians have their own feeding troughs, but at the state level, where one party rule is reality.
The kids from Little Orleans go to Hancock because Flintstone High was closed back in 1999. It costs our county money to send them to Washington County schools, but it is a "favor" that was affordable so long as our county had a similar agreement with Garrett County for the kids that lived in Finzel would go to Frostburg schools, again for proximity regions. Garrett County canceled their agreement, Allegany may do the same. I don't think this is very good "evidence" that we benefit from Washington County being our neighbor since all we "receive" is the right to pay money so rural kids don't have to travel so far. I don't think Hancock High is a better school than Fort Hill, but it saves the kids maybe 30-40 minutes a day in travel time.
Allegany County tried to help a developer build a new community close enough for large numbers of people to live in Allegany and commute to Washington Co., but our lovely Governor and General Assembly passed a special bill to create impossible hoops to jump through to make sure it wouldn't be built. Our county was going to challenge the law in court, until the housing market crashed and the developer no longer could follow through on his end. So here again, is an example of the state working actively against the economic interest of our county. Why? Because they have the eco-guilt mentality that since their home counties are paved over, let's make sure there are trees somewhere in the state for us to visit once a year and pat ourselves on the back over preserving.
As for the miners. They are people, husbands, fathers, citizens of the state of Maryland. They were working dangerous, but good paying jobs, to support themselves and their families. I guess to you and the Governor the accident was less about the dead men and more about staying away to stick it to mining execs.
The interstate was an ARC priority going back 60 years, and was one of the last to be built. I am grateful to the state, specifically the late Billy Don, for ponying up the money. I guarantee you O'Malley would not do the same for us today. That is why the time frame on its construction matters. 20-30 years ago are not today. To use a cliche, thanks for the big road, but what have you done for me lately?
Yeah, we get more tax money in than we pay in tax out. We are a "welfare" county. The problem is we shouldn't be. There is no good reason our neighboring counties in WV and PA should be growing in population and have higher income levels than Allegany County. We have the infrastructure, the population, everything we need except partners in Annapolis that allow us to compete with our neighbors that surround us. So, the money in is a nice band-aid to put on the slash wound the state inflicts on us with a tax, fee, regulation, attitude imbalance when compared to WV and PA. Until the state recognizes this, the bleeding will continue and more band-aids will be wasted.
Lastly, dude the wedge between our counties is called Morgan County, WV. We literally share about 5 miles (as the crow flies) of border with Washington County which 2 roads cross, our principal cities are 65 miles apart, the geography of rugged Allegany and wide and fertile Washington are different, as are our proximity to the jobs in the DC/Baltimore corridor. The evidence is there on full display.
I don't think this is very good "evidence" that we benefit from Washington County being our neighbor since all we "receive" is the right to pay money so rural kids don't have to travel so far. I don't think Hancock High is a better school than Fort Hill, but it saves the kids maybe 30-40 minutes a day in travel time.
Your opinion. From the article, the parents of Little Orleans seem to think otherwise. Maybe they should attempt to secede or from the sounds of it you want to throw them out because it costs Allegany too much money.
Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy
Allegany County tried to help a developer build a new community close enough for large numbers of people to live in Allegany and commute to Washington Co., but our lovely Governor and General Assembly passed a special bill to create impossible hoops to jump through to make sure it wouldn't be built. Our county was going to challenge the law in court, until the housing market crashed and the developer no longer could follow through on his end. So here again, is an example of the state working actively against the economic interest of our county. Why? Because they have the eco-guilt mentality that since their home counties are paved over, let's make sure there are trees somewhere in the state for us to visit once a year and pat ourselves on the back over preserving.
Are you talking about Terrapin Run? Yes darn those granola crunching eco-Nazis in Annapolis for preventing developers from throwing up a new city from the ground up when they planned on making no improvements to the infrastructure to support it and the water demands would have sucked the wells of every nearby residence (including a bed and breakfast) completely dry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy
As for the miners. They are people, husbands, fathers, citizens of the state of Maryland. They were working dangerous, but good paying jobs, to support themselves and their families. I guess to you and the Governor the accident was less about the dead men and more about staying away to stick it to mining execs.
And let me guess, O'Malley wasn't wearing is American flag lapel pin that day either. Another tired conservative "you need to kiss the baby" argument. Yes but of course:
"Even with modern safety advances, mining is dirty, risky work whether done above ground or below. Four coal miners have died in Maryland since 1996. The two most recent deaths occurred in 2007 at a strip mine in Barton. Mike Wilt, 37, and Dale Jones, 52, were working in the coal pit when an unstable "highwall" collapsed, raining some 93,000 tons of rock and material on their heavy-equipment vehicles.The federal Mine Safety and Health Administration cited the operator, Tri-Star Mining Inc., for violations that it said contributed to the accident. Tri-Star paid $105,000 in fines as part of a settlement."
This is not a natural disaster. Too bad O'Malley doesn't show up everytime two individuals get murdered by their workplace's negligence. But I defer to the people of your area to give their own perspective.
Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy
The interstate was an ARC priority going back 60 years, and was one of the last to be built. I am grateful to the state, specifically the late Billy Don, for ponying up the money. I guarantee you O'Malley would not do the same for us today. That is why the time frame on its construction matters. 20-30 years ago are not today. To use a cliche, thanks for the big road, but what have you done for me lately?
This is your own personal opinion that has no basis in fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy
Yeah, we get more tax money in than we pay in tax out. We are a "welfare" county. The problem is we shouldn't be. There is no good reason our neighboring counties in WV and PA should be growing in population and have higher income levels than Allegany County. We have the infrastructure, the population, everything we need except partners in Annapolis that allow us to compete with our neighbors that surround us. So, the money in is a nice band-aid to put on the slash wound the state inflicts on us with a tax, fee, regulation, attitude imbalance when compared to WV and PA. Until the state recognizes this, the bleeding will continue and more band-aids will be wasted.
I already addressed this. Washington County and Montgomery County are the only two jurisdictions in Maryland that offer property tax breaks to small businesses. Why does Allegany County not give these tax breaks? Maybe you need the revenue. Why does Maryland increase taxes on cigarettes and collect fees from all over the state? Maybe it needs the revenue to take from every county and give a disproportionate share back to Allegany County. But funny how you don't hear the "liberals" in Montgomery County complaining about Allegany County. Perhaps it's best to just stay under the radar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy
Lastly, dude the wedge between our counties is called Morgan County, WV. We literally share about 5 miles (as the crow flies) of border with Washington County which 2 roads cross, our principal cities are 65 miles apart, the geography of rugged Allegany and wide and fertile Washington are different, as are our proximity to the jobs in the DC/Baltimore corridor. The evidence is there on full display.
Well dude, US Route 40 (the National Pike) was built through Cumberland. Had Cumberland maintained its population threshold then I-70 would have been built along the same route, not cut up through PA. Even after all of that, Allegany and Garrett still had I-68 built through them. Allegany has to live down the same political decision from splitting with Washington County over 200 years ago that the city of Baltimore has to when declaring "independence" from Baltimore County. I'm completely missing the point that despite have an interstate highway the distance somehow cannot be traversed to civilization when as I stated before, the guy who repaired my satellite covers a district that spans from Pittsburgh, PA to Martinsburg, WV and my neighbor manages a retail district where he visits his stores from Winchester, VA to Columbia, MD. Once again, Allegany is not an island floating off into space, last I checked it was still attached to Maryland's infrastructure!
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. It okay bud. Sorry for poking the bear. I started the argument and I shouldn't have, we kool I hope.
) than live in PG county again. I don't have a problem helping them out there with tax money- PG county sucks. That f- everyone but me is a little selfish, at least I think so. If I see someone choking on the street a block down, I'd like to think I would help them rather than say- "Well guess you should have voted republican and not eaten that walnut"., and just keep on walking.
If developers need incentives to develop then perhaps they should get out of the developing business! So I echo VWClassic's sentiment that as a resident of an entire state, resource allocation must go to the greater good which is why so many Marylanders work in one county but live in the next county over where housing is more affordable. On the eye test, it seems Washington County has more Frederick County Sheriff's Deputies living here than Frederick County!
