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Old 02-26-2011, 09:30 AM
 
Location: Edgemere, Maryland
501 posts, read 957,114 times
Reputation: 175

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Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
BillDon liked Western Maryland OK, he did lots of things to help us out. More than any governor since....
Really, I didn't know that. I'm glad he has some redeeming qualities then. There hasn't been a Maryland Governor I've liked since I've been alive. Oh well. I do like (okay perhaps love) Barbara Mikulski and her personality, but some of her policies are crap. It's funny to me how she was ranked (tied with Ben Cardin and a few others) as the United States Senate's "Most Liberal Member" this week, yet you and I know that both Western Maryland and the Eastern Shore are pretty conservative, so I wouldn't say she (or Cardin) is representing all Marylanders. If she were, she'd be a bit more moderate, perhaps on the lines of Joe Manchin of West Virginia.
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Old 02-26-2011, 02:35 PM
 
3,137 posts, read 7,899,475 times
Reputation: 1946
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDguy99 View Post
I never said it did. But it DOES represent the state's roots. Without the Eastern Shore and the Chesapeake, Maryland wouldn't be Maryland. The fact that the OFFICIAL STATE TOURISM WEBSITE states that Maryland's roots are Southern only proves that those who are of the opinion that this state is not in the North are backed by legitimate sources.
I don't think anyone's arguing the history of the state, but a state can't be defined by history alone. Massachusetts has its roots in Puritanism, but no one's arguing that Massachusetts is a religiously conservative state. There was a time when Maryland was culturally southern. At this point, that culture survives only on the Eastern Shore. Feel free to show examples of how Southern culture in MD lives on today- that's difficult to do if you leave the Eastern Shore.
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Old 02-26-2011, 04:26 PM
 
Location: Edgemere, Maryland
501 posts, read 957,114 times
Reputation: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcity View Post
I don't think anyone's arguing the history of the state, but a state can't be defined by history alone. Massachusetts has its roots in Puritanism, but no one's arguing that Massachusetts is a religiously conservative state. There was a time when Maryland was culturally southern. At this point, that culture survives only on the Eastern Shore. Feel free to show examples of how Southern culture in MD lives on today- that's difficult to do if you leave the Eastern Shore.
I never said it was defined by history alone. Please go back and read my responses. I explain that the site speaks of PRESENT DAY Southern hospitality that residents of the Eastern Shore have. Sure, the Eastern Shore is only part of Maryland - but it's still Maryland, and a LARGE part at that. And, no, it is not difficult at all to show examples of how Southern culture lives on in Maryland today in parts of Southern and Western Maryland and southeastern Baltimore County. Just because much of the state is more northeastern in culture (yes, mostly because the millions of transplants), does not mean the state is not Southern at all- and, it certainly doesn't mean it is a Northeastern state. And, no, I will not provide examples because I know you would just refute them and this would turn into an argument. You have your opinion, and I know that will not be changed, neither will my opinion. So, that's all there is to that.

Last edited by MDguy99; 02-26-2011 at 04:34 PM..
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Old 02-27-2011, 10:44 AM
 
Location: Cumberland
4,566 posts, read 7,640,867 times
Reputation: 2790
Milkuski brings the pork out to Western Maryland, and is blantant in advertising so. She actually does, or comes close to beating the GOP candidate in Allegany County on occassion.

I never been able to figure out what Cardin does. He sends a Letter to the Editor to our local paper monthly, but they are always just broad liberal-style agenda talking points. Let's be honest neither senator needs votes from out here to stay in office, but it is nice to be remembered on occasion. I still vote against both of them though.
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Old 02-27-2011, 12:55 PM
 
Location: Germantown, MD
1,359 posts, read 3,192,964 times
Reputation: 569
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDguy99 View Post
I'm not understanding your point here. Your claim in your last response was that somehow I was misrepresenting the quote from the website. I was not. You were wrong on that one. The site does say that the state of Maryland as a whole has its roots in Southern hospitality. Just accept the fact, as I have said, that I have found a legitimate state resource that happens to disagree with you. Your opinion is that the state is more northeastern. Great, but that is not a fact. I happen to have found a state website that disagrees with you (yes, it was speaking of Maryland as a whole and not just the Eastern Shore having its roots in Southern hospitality). Also, the ENTIRE Eastern Shore is more Southern than Northern, in my experience - again don't state your opinion as fact.
You ended your first response with this statement:
"Your claim that the Eastern Shore's southern hospitality is a thing of the past is bogus."

What I'm saying is that I never made such a claim. I'm not saying my opinion is fact. For something as arbitrary and subjective as cultural regional definitions, especially concerning on-the-border states like Maryland, I doubt anyone can claim their opinion as absolute fact. The quote you posted is just an opinion as well. A person from some other state or country might think the Eastern Shore's hospitality is horrible. I've heard far more quotes from government officials grouping Maryland with the Northeast. Not to mention that the state moved from the South to East Region in the Council of State Governments last year because the lawmakers in Annapolis seem to share my opinion as well. In addition to the CSG East, the state is also a part of a number of other NE regional organizations such as the Northeast Economic Developers Association (NEDA) and Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative (RGGI).

Here's an AP article published in the Balt. Sun and Wash. Post:
Md. Lawmakers Not Feeling so Southern Anymore

As for the entire E. Shore being Southern. Yes, it's just my opinion, but Ocean City hardly seems Southern, being not much different from the neighboring Delaware beaches or it's NJ twin, except for the age demographic it serves. The "Southerness" seems to dilute as you head North on the Delmarva as well (imho rural≠Southern). I would say the transition starts in Queen Anne County/Kent County (DE) with the two counties in the Delaware Valley/Philadelphia Metropolitan Area, Cecil County (if you consider it part of the Eastern Shore) and New Castle County (DE), being decidedly Northeastern.
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Old 02-27-2011, 01:58 PM
 
Location: Edgemere, Maryland
501 posts, read 957,114 times
Reputation: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpterp View Post
You ended your first response with this statement:
"Your claim that the Eastern Shore's southern hospitality is a thing of the past is bogus."

What I'm saying is that I never made such a claim. I'm not saying my opinion is fact. For something as arbitrary and subjective as cultural regional definitions, especially concerning on-the-border states like Maryland, I doubt anyone can claim their opinion as absolute fact. The quote you posted is just an opinion as well. A person from some other state or country might think the Eastern Shore's hospitality is horrible. I've heard far more quotes from government officials grouping Maryland with the Northeast. Not to mention that the state moved from the South to East Region in the Council of State Governments last year because the lawmakers in Annapolis seem to share my opinion as well. In addition to the CSG East, the state is also a part of a number of other NE regional organizations such as the Northeast Economic Developers Association (NEDA) and Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative (RGGI).

Here's an AP article published in the Balt. Sun and Wash. Post:
Md. Lawmakers Not Feeling so Southern Anymore

As for the entire E. Shore being Southern. Yes, it's just my opinion, but Ocean City hardly seems Southern, being not much different from the neighboring Delaware beaches or it's NJ twin, except for the age demographic it serves. The "Southerness" seems to dilute as you head North on the Delmarva as well (imho rural≠Southern). I would say the transition starts in Queen Anne County/Kent County (DE) with the two counties in the Delaware Valley/Philadelphia Metropolitan Area, Cecil County (if you consider it part of the Eastern Shore) and New Castle County (DE), being decidedly Northeastern.

First off, I am talking about the Eastern Shore of Maryland, not the whole of Delmarva. So, yes, I do think everything from Kent County, Maryland southward, including Sussex County and Southern Kent County, Delaware, is Southern. You may see it differently, great, but no one I've ran the question past in the day-to-day has.

Say what you want about government officals saying this and that, but for every government example that claims MD is Northeastern, I can give you one that says it's Southern. A month or so ago, I was on the Southern Governors Association (SGA) web page, and there was an article about Martin O'Malley. There are education bureaus that include Maryland in the South Atlantic. So, obviously, official opinion is split on the issue.

The topic in your "Lawmakers not feeling Southern" link, is really just a reflection of demographics. The people who proposed it were State Senator Catherine E. Pugh, who is a liberal African American from Baltimore City, and others from the DC suburbs. It's no surprise that they would hold that opinion. As westsideboy (I believe that's who it was) already mentioned, LARGE geographic swaths of the state are not culturally Northern. However, due to population being concentrated in central Maryland, you will not see much evidence for this when looking at things such as the legislature.

My point has been that no one can claim that Maryland is 100% Northern. It is beyond a shadow of a doubt that even today (and you did refute this point in a previous post), not just 150 years ago, Southern culture exists in the state to some extent - even if it is confined to the most rural areas of Maryland.
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Old 02-27-2011, 04:53 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
4,566 posts, read 7,640,867 times
Reputation: 2790
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDguy99 View Post
First off, I am talking about the Eastern Shore of Maryland, not the whole of Delmarva. So, yes, I do think everything from Kent County, Maryland southward, including Sussex County and Southern Kent County, Delaware, is Southern. You may see it differently, great, but no one I've ran the question past in the day-to-day has.

Say what you want about government officals saying this and that, but for every government example that claims MD is Northeastern, I can give you one that says it's Southern. A month or so ago, I was on the Southern Governors Association (SGA) web page, and there was an article about Martin O'Malley. There are education bureaus that include Maryland in the South Atlantic. So, obviously, official opinion is split on the issue.

The topic in your "Lawmakers not feeling Southern" link, is really just a reflection of demographics. The people who proposed it were State Senator Catherine E. Pugh, who is a liberal African American from Baltimore City, and others from the DC suburbs. It's no surprise that they would hold that opinion. As westsideboy (I believe that's who it was) already mentioned, LARGE geographic swaths of the state are not culturally Northern. However, due to population being concentrated in central Maryland, you will not see much evidence for this when looking at things such as the legislature.

My point has been that no one can claim that Maryland is 100% Northern. It is beyond a shadow of a doubt that even today (and you did refute this point in a previous post), not just 150 years ago, Southern culture exists in the state to some extent - even if it is confined to the most rural areas of Maryland.
Yeah, I said that, and much more. Doesn't seem to make much of a difference in the discussions though. There are a few posters that have clear cut agendas about why they think/want Maryland to be labeled a Northeastern state. Most of it comes back to the stereotypes of NE states being rich, educated, liberal, while the South is poor, ignorant, and conservative. Many of the NE transplants moving to Maryland want to conceive of their new home as being similar to the one they left. It should be no surprise then that they move to the metro part of the state, see what they want to see, then make argument after argument why their observations, opinions, etc. are more valid.

I find it personally frustrating when posters end up admiting "Yeah, Maryland is a border state," but then continue to argue why this label should then be subject to some sort of "voting" where the majority of our state's residents clustered around the metro areas (of course being transplants or the children of transplants) can outnumber, outvote, and thus change the identity of the state as a whole.

It is a incorrect argument on its face because cultural heritage doesn't follow politically drawn borders, and Maryland has always been one of the states settled in patterns reflecting the North and the South. Maybe this makes us both, maybe it makes us neither? I don't know, but it clearly doesn't make us one or the other.

Anyone who argues otherwise has to type alot of text, present alot of data, and then make that leap of faith that their argument and data actually translates into the identity of all of our state's residents, especially the natives, at a personal level.

I would just let it be. Some posters are always going to try and have the last word, as though that somehow means they "win" the argument. Whatever, I don't need anybody else to tell me what Maryland is. I know, I am from here, my parents are from here, my grandparents are from here, my great-grandparents are from here, and so on back to when my ancestors had to build their homes in defense of Indian raids. Sure change happens, but it doesn't erase or change the history of those whose ancestor's directly connect themselves to the past. All change does is layer on top.

Maybe one day, all of the transplant veneer can be striped off of our state layer by layer to reveal the true masterpiece underneath.

Last edited by westsideboy; 02-27-2011 at 05:01 PM..
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Old 02-27-2011, 05:33 PM
 
829 posts, read 2,510,105 times
Reputation: 357
Its funny though these "Rich Liberal North Easterner's" who love it where they are and how there liberal state does things--->...move to southern, more conservative states...and then try to take over the way they do things...Thats the funny thing about the liberal transplants.
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Old 02-27-2011, 06:08 PM
 
1,009 posts, read 1,852,903 times
Reputation: 1423
Quote:
Originally Posted by CelticViking View Post
Its funny though these "Rich Liberal North Easterner's" who love it where they are and how there liberal state does things--->...move to southern, more conservative states...and then try to take over the way they do things...Thats the funny thing about the liberal transplants.
I would contend that it is the conservatives that leave the northern states to go to the Sunbelt. The suburbs of Southern cities are decidedly Republican and are largely fueled by northern in-migration. The northern suburbs of Atlanta and Orlando come to mind. I wouldn't make any assertions about Alabama and Mississippi but I think Georgia would have easily flipped back Democratic without suburban Atlanta's explosive growth.

Texas also used to be a solidly Democratic state well up through the 80s. The Research Triangle was always a bastion of liberalism (Chapel Hill elected a black mayor in like 1968) but it seemed like it took a long time to become a "blue state". Not that it should have become blue (and it still seems more split), but southern states tend to be decidedly non-urban and without fast growth the largely impoverished rural areas would seemingly vote democratic like the non-urban, largely impoverished West Virginia. But looking at the map below of party affiliation of U.S. Senators there are pretty much no widespread generalizations that can be correlated between political orientation and region.


Current party membership by state

[CENTER][/CENTER] 2 Democrats
[CENTER][/CENTER] 1 Democrat and 1 Republican
[CENTER][/CENTER] 2 Republicans
[CENTER][/CENTER] 1 Independent and 1 Democrat
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Old 02-27-2011, 06:23 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
4,566 posts, read 7,640,867 times
Reputation: 2790
Yes, it is strange that both West Virginia and Maryland are essentially 1 party, Democrat dominated states. Statewide policies are about as far apart as they can be in areas like the right to bear arms, environmentalism, zoning, etc. The only issues I can think of where the average Maryland Dem and WV Dem would agree is on entitlements and unionism.

Despite the dominance of the Dems on the state level in West Virginia, the state has gotten redder in the last 3 presidential elections as the Dems on the national level keep nominating more liberal presidential candidates.
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