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Old 11-18-2014, 01:18 PM
 
4,801 posts, read 3,448,212 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerSC View Post
Although the Mason-Dixon line is supposedly at the Maryland/Pennsylvania border, it seems to me that the transition from North to South begins around Richmond, Virginia. As the southern part of Virginia is slower paced, and there is a much more pronounced Southern accent. But get above Richmond, there is a busier, faster pace, and the prevailing cultural climate seems more Northeastern. But there is of course Southern Maryland and Western Maryland which seem a bit more rural slower paced, but the Baltimore/Washington corridor is definitely fast paced and seems to be more associated with the Northeast.
Aren't the things you're referring to have more to do with urban vs. rural rather than Southern vs. Northern?
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Old 11-18-2014, 01:38 PM
 
Location: Oxford, CT
3,556 posts, read 2,325,625 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool View Post
Aren't the things you're referring to have more to do with urban vs. rural rather than Southern vs. Northern?
Nailed that one, pretty much what I was thinking.
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Old 11-18-2014, 08:44 PM
 
Location: Prince George's County, Maryland
6,212 posts, read 7,041,393 times
Reputation: 2581
Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerSC View Post
Although the Mason-Dixon line is supposedly at the Maryland/Pennsylvania border, it seems to me that the transition from North to South begins around Richmond, Virginia. As the southern part of Virginia is slower paced, and there is a much more pronounced Southern accent. But get above Richmond, there is a busier, faster pace, and the prevailing cultural climate seems more Northeastern. But there is of course Southern Maryland and Western Maryland which seem a bit more rural slower paced, but the Baltimore/Washington corridor is definitely fast paced and seems to be more associated with the Northeast.
Solid post.
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Old 11-19-2014, 10:21 AM
 
194 posts, read 165,232 times
Reputation: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool View Post
I am well aware of the fact that even some Southern sounding Baltimoreans will not admit to being Southern. You don't have to believe me. In fact, if I wanted to make something up I could have made up a story of going to Baltimore, and meeting a ton of people that said "yes" to being Southern. But no, all I have for my frame of reference is this one guy. The fact that you can't believe that ONE person in Baltimore believes he is Southern means you are really into this delusion of Baltimore people being 100% Northeastern. What the hell is a "full blown" Southern accent supposed to mean, anyway? All Southerners have differing dialects depending on what region you're in. But, what they all share in common is vowel pronunciation. Baltimore (unlike Philly) uses Southern vowels all of the time, whereas Philly uses them *some* of the time.

Baltimore and Philadelphia are SIMILAR. Even linguists admit they can sound very different. And get off the Philly bullcrap already. As if I haven't brought it up enough. Expert linguists who admit that Philly is a Northern accent will still attest to its Southern characteristics.

Penn: The Philly Accent is Steadily Changing

Notice this how Philly had Southern inflections to begin with.

Read more:

The Overlooked Philadelphia Accent | Dialect Blog

Again, the example is seen in how Philly people pronounce certain vowels.



The above describes Philly, NOT Baltimore. Philly's is a Southern-lite vowel use accent with NY sounds whereas Baltimore's is fully Southern. Find me someone with a Baltimore accent that has any NYisms in it.

See I know damn well that the Philly accent is Northeastern. You're the one who will not admit to its Southernisms, however. But to say that Baltimore's accent has NY characteristics is ridiculous.



The Yankee-fication Of The Philly Accent | The American Conservative


Philly's sound in history has been "Southern-ish". The fact that I'm not the only one noticing this shows that you just want to ignore facts. If Philly's sound is "Southern-ish" then it stands to reason that Baltimore's sound is Southern because of the fact that it doesn't have a Northern Cities Vowel Shift or any of that New York pronunciation.

Baltimore's accent is not Northeastern, you've got it backwards. It's Philly's accent that has a bit of Southern in it that causes it to sound like Baltimore, not the other way around. Philly is a bad example for you to use because it has Southern aspects. Let me know when Baltimore people sound like New Yorkers or Bostonians and then you have a case. You can't use a city that already has Southernisms as an example. That's a terrible way to prove Baltimore sounds Northeastern.
All you have to go on is your opinion. The University of Pennsylvania groups Baltimore and Philly into the same region and apart from the Southern accent. Good god you would say Baltimore is Southern even if it were just like New York wouldn't you. Get lost. You're a waste of time and energy.
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Old 11-19-2014, 10:28 AM
 
Location: Oxford, CT
3,556 posts, read 2,325,625 times
Reputation: 2898
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball freak View Post
All you have to go on is your opinion. The University of Pennsylvania groups Baltimore and Philly into the same region and apart from the Southern accent. Good god you would say Baltimore is Southern even if it were just like New York wouldn't you. Get lost. You're a waste of time and energy.
If New York were in any southern state it would not change the state to a northern state. I really don't think accent is something we should focus on... regional dialects change over time and are affected by too many factors to really be definitive.

Just yesterday I found a Northeastern "accent tag" for Maryland that screamed southern accent, but I didn't post it because well... I don't think it really defines a place as southern or northern in the end.
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Old 11-19-2014, 10:36 AM
 
194 posts, read 165,232 times
Reputation: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf39us View Post
If New York were in any southern state it would not change the state to a northern state. I really don't think accent is something we should focus on... regional dialects change over time and are affected by too many factors to really be definitive.

Just yesterday I found a Northeastern "accent tag" for Maryland that screamed southern accent, but I didn't post it because well... I don't think it really defines a place as southern or northern in the end.
I think you just dismiss accents because you know they throw a dent in your theories. What a state was before the Civil War has nothing to do with what it is today. Today Maryland is culturally, overall linguistically, politically, and overall demographically not a Southern state. Eddieolskool will disagree but I no longer care for either of your opinions. Think what you want but don't try to convert me.
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Old 11-19-2014, 10:50 AM
 
Location: Oxford, CT
3,556 posts, read 2,325,625 times
Reputation: 2898
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball freak View Post
I think you just dismiss accents because you know they throw a dent in your theories. What a state was before the Civil War has nothing to do with what it is today. Today Maryland is culturally, overall linguistically, politically, and overall demographically not a Southern state. Eddieolskool will disagree but I no longer care for either of your opinions. Think what you want but don't try to convert me.
Not trying to convert anyone. Just sticking with the facts.

You can change for example VA linguistically, culturally, and demographically into a "Northern" state but in the end it will stay a southern state. There's just no way around that.

If you accept that the criteria above are good enough to switch regions then you must accept that any state anywhere can switch regions for the same criteria.
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Old 11-19-2014, 11:05 AM
 
Location: Cumberland
4,564 posts, read 7,627,687 times
Reputation: 2780
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf39us View Post
If New York were in any southern state it would not change the state to a northern state. I really don't think accent is something we should focus on... regional dialects change over time and are affected by too many factors to really be definitive.

Just yesterday I found a Northeastern "accent tag" for Maryland that screamed southern accent, but I didn't post it because well... I don't think it really defines a place as southern or northern in the end.
Dialects do matter, but they are only one of many cultural markers that should be considered.

I think it should also be mentioned that no one argues that any part of Maryland speaks with a Northern dialect. Our state has always been right on the border between the Midland dialect groups and the Southern ones, hence the difficulty in deciding "where to draw the line" between these major segments of American English.

Maryland being on the dialect border is a reflection on our historic and current place between 3 of 4 great migratory groups in the early US, the Tidewater settlers, the PA Midland settlers, and the Back Country, aka Appalachian, settlers. Notice what is missing? The Yankees. We are two far south to have been influenced linguistically or culturally by the 4th large group of early American settlers. (read Albion's Seed for more info on this topic)

So, there is some basis for calling Maryland "Mid-Atlantic," whatever that term means. There is no basis for grouping us with any state further north than PA.
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Old 11-19-2014, 11:09 AM
 
5,292 posts, read 5,279,534 times
Reputation: 1100
"The urbanites seem to be the only ones that are REALLY convinced the entire state should be labeled as part of the North, and maybe in their minds that densely inhabited 1/3 of our state where 75% of the population lives is Northern."

*I think LIKE that!!!




Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
The argument can be made that the first cultural divide that should be made in America is urban/rural; as urban areas have more in common with each other, regardless of where in the country they happen to be located, when compared to the rural regions just an hour or so away.

Maryland is clearly an urban state. You can say the majority of our citizens are part of generalized American urban culture that resembles states to our north.

Once you eliminate the urban areas, you then ask which regional culture the rural areas belong to. The answers are South (Southern Maryland & Eastern Shore,) Appalachia (Western Maryland,) Midlands (Mid-Maryland along the Mason-Dixon.)

That is my point. Pretty much everyone living in a place that isn't the urban core of the state is saying the state's regional identity isn't Northern. It is either Mid-Atlantic/Border State (loosely tying the two terms together although I think there is some nuance there) or Southern-lite.

The urbanites seem to be the only ones that are REALLY convinced the entire state should be labeled as part of the North, and maybe in their minds that densely inhabited 1/3 of our state where 75% of the population lives is Northern. They are possibly right about their part of the state, but dense urban Maryland is just another one of our state's diverse regions. Going by a simple population count, majority rules, attitude is intellectually lazy and inaccurate; cultural regions don't follow state borders and no urban area gets to "outvote" their rural neighbors to silence them on who they say they are.

We should celebrate Maryland's diversity of lifestyles, cultures, dialects, and folkways, rather than trying to bury it under concrete, condo buildings, and fed bucks.
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Old 11-19-2014, 11:13 AM
 
5,292 posts, read 5,279,534 times
Reputation: 1100
Excellent Points Eddie!!! I'm from Baltimore and hate to admit to its southern sounding ways. But, does southern have to equate to being backwards, country and ignorant? You can say that way about Southern New Jersey, Camden were you find a few southern shifts in dialect.



Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool View Post
I am well aware of the fact that even some Southern sounding Baltimoreans will not admit to being Southern. You don't have to believe me. In fact, if I wanted to make something up I could have made up a story of going to Baltimore, and meeting a ton of people that said "yes" to being Southern. But no, all I have for my frame of reference is this one guy. The fact that you can't believe that ONE person in Baltimore believes he is Southern means you are really into this delusion of Baltimore people being 100% Northeastern. What the hell is a "full blown" Southern accent supposed to mean, anyway? All Southerners have differing dialects depending on what region you're in. But, what they all share in common is vowel pronunciation. Baltimore (unlike Philly) uses Southern vowels all of the time, whereas Philly uses them *some* of the time.

Baltimore and Philadelphia are SIMILAR. Even linguists admit they can sound very different. And get off the Philly bullcrap already. As if I haven't brought it up enough. Expert linguists who admit that Philly is a Northern accent will still attest to its Southern characteristics.

Penn: The Philly Accent is Steadily Changing

Notice this how Philly had Southern inflections to begin with.

Read more:

The Overlooked Philadelphia Accent | Dialect Blog

Again, the example is seen in how Philly people pronounce certain vowels.



The above describes Philly, NOT Baltimore. Philly's is a Southern-lite vowel use accent with NY sounds whereas Baltimore's is fully Southern. Find me someone with a Baltimore accent that has any NYisms in it.

See I know damn well that the Philly accent is Northeastern. You're the one who will not admit to its Southernisms, however. But to say that Baltimore's accent has NY characteristics is ridiculous.



The Yankee-fication Of The Philly Accent | The American Conservative


Philly's sound in history has been "Southern-ish". The fact that I'm not the only one noticing this shows that you just want to ignore facts. If Philly's sound is "Southern-ish" then it stands to reason that Baltimore's sound is Southern because of the fact that it doesn't have a Northern Cities Vowel Shift or any of that New York pronunciation.

Baltimore's accent is not Northeastern, you've got it backwards. It's Philly's accent that has a bit of Southern in it that causes it to sound like Baltimore, not the other way around. Philly is a bad example for you to use because it has Southern aspects. Let me know when Baltimore people sound like New Yorkers or Bostonians and then you have a case. You can't use a city that already has Southernisms as an example. That's a terrible way to prove Baltimore sounds Northeastern.
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