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Old 11-19-2014, 06:20 PM
 
194 posts, read 165,007 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Why is that?
Because according to the University of Pennsylvania, the two have the same dialect. This was as of 30 years ago. If it was true then it's only more true today. In addition one thing people have left out is Baltimore as a manufacturing city with Rust Belt influences. This is much more characteristic of a Northeastern city than a Southern one. You and Eddie will say Baltimore is Southern until you die so I don't even know why I bothered with this explanation.
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Old 11-19-2014, 06:38 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
4,558 posts, read 7,617,865 times
Reputation: 2769
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball freak View Post
Don't call me bud we aren't friends. Second off quit using that Mason-Dixon Line to say Baltimore is in the South because that is the only thing proving it is southern from a modern standpoint . Baltimore is historically a part of the South. So is St. Louis but that city clearly is not Southern anymore unless you're an idiot. Neither is Baltimore. That circle tells us Baltimore lies outside of the Southern accent zone. It is Southern influenced. If Baltimore is Southern so is Philadelphia. It's pathetic how badly you want Baltimore to be Southern. I suggest you quit bothering me because you aren't winning and I'm not changing my view. Go away.
If you don't want to converse with people that disagree with you, stop replying to them. This is the thread that won't die. So, I would take into consideration that despite the strong opinions being offered, no one is really "winning." If there was nothing to dispute, there would be no argument.

The fact that this argument has enough legs for both sides to present evidence, offer anecdotes, express opinions sorta proves that Maryland isn't solidly in either region.

Do yourself a favor and either detach if the debate is really getting to you so much that you feel the need to tell people to "go away." Or, if you wish to stay in the debate, keep your cool, present your points, and understand you aren't going to change anyone's mind either.

Last edited by westsideboy; 11-19-2014 at 08:00 PM..
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Old 11-19-2014, 07:10 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
27,611 posts, read 24,787,463 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball freak View Post
Because according to the University of Pennsylvania, the two have the same dialect. This was as of 30 years ago. If it was true then it's only more true today. In addition one thing people have left out is Baltimore as a manufacturing city with Rust Belt influences. This is much more characteristic of a Northeastern city than a Southern one. You and Eddie will say Baltimore is Southern until you die so I don't even know why I bothered with this explanation.
What does this have to do with Philadelphia's geographic location? It is in the Northeast. It has never been considered a part of the South.
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Old 11-19-2014, 07:16 PM
 
619 posts, read 642,641 times
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Do you know that one of the dialect maps even places the small southern tip of New Jersey in the south? If you look closely at one of the dialect maps, next to Delaware, you will see a small part of NJ is actually part of the south. So this means a small tip of New Jersey is southern, just like they placed Southern Delaware and Southern Maryland in the south on the same map. Congratulations, New Jersey!
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Old 11-19-2014, 08:18 PM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
2,380 posts, read 1,215,289 times
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To me the Baltimore dialect, while it's doesn't sound exactly like the Philly/South Jersey accent, it definitely sounds like it's in the same 'family' as those accents. Similarly, while not quintessential 'northeast', I definitely do feel remnants of Northeast characteristics. Driving north up 95, when I pass Baltimore is when its starts 'feeling' like I'm near the northeast.

Although, there are quite a few characteristics where Baltimore does differ from the rest of the NE (which have been beaten to death). The city is really a mixed bag. While technically in the south, arguments can be made both ways. Hence the 135 page thread.
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Old 11-19-2014, 08:20 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
4,558 posts, read 7,617,865 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Early linguistic studies did place Baltimore in the southern dialect region.

http://www.csiss.org/classics/upload...lustration.gif

http://www.evolpub.com/Americandialects/AmDialMap.gif

But the southern accent is now in retreat.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...EnglishMap.jpg
Nice maps, but they aren't referring to the same things. Hans Kurath's map was based on lexical use, largely farm terminology and animal names that are (well, were) distinct among the different dialect regions of the East Coast. So, does a cow "moo" or "low?" Those are sort of things Dr. Kurath looked at.

The wiki map is based mostly on the monophthongization of long i after fricatives. I can't say I have heard this vowel pattern in Maryland, although it may still exist in deep Southern Maryland and the Eastern Shore. Pretty much anywhere in Maryland, you will hear native speakers monophthong long I in front of labials, like "That's mahn! Give it back!" or "ah'm goin' to the store, need anythin'?"

You don't hear "That sure is a shahny car." in the areas I am familiar with.

So again, Maryland possesses some aspects of this distinctive Southern vowel pattern, but not the trait in its entirety.

Either way, I like this map too.



Frequency of either "Y'all" or "You all" to address multiple people, according to an Internet survey of American dialect variation. Once again, Maryland is right on that border between Southern speech usages and Midland ones.

Last edited by westsideboy; 11-19-2014 at 08:52 PM..
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Old 11-19-2014, 09:31 PM
 
Location: PG County, MD
582 posts, read 739,653 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
Pretty much anywhere in Maryland, you will hear native speakers monophthong long I in front of labials, like "That's mahn! Give it back!" or "ah'm goin' to the store, need anythin'?"

You don't hear "That sure is a shahny car." in the areas I am familiar with.
Did you mean nasals? Anyway, that's strange. If mine becomes mahn, I would expect shine to become shahn. Those are nearly identical linguistics environments.

I (i'm in my 20's, grew up in northern Calvert) would say "tight" as "tite", but "tide" as "tahd". Not bound by fricatives or labials.
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Old 11-19-2014, 09:48 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
4,558 posts, read 7,617,865 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tezcatlipoca View Post
Did you mean nasals? Anyway, that's strange. If mine becomes mahn, I would expect shine to become shahn. Those are nearly identical linguistics environments.

I (i'm in my 20's, grew up in northern Calvert) would say "tight" as "tite", but "tide" as "tahd". Not bound by fricatives or labials.
"M" is a bilabial because it is articulated with both lips. It is also a nasal, so good call there.

I don't know the exact mechanism to explain why, but I easily pronounce a word like "I'm" as "Ah'm," or "my" as "ma," but would never say "shy" as "sha." The best I can describe it is that my mouth naturally glides back after the "sh" to a position where I start the "ah" and then glides forward through to the "ee", like a classic dipthong.

Do you say "kite" or "kaht." This normally a good tell word. Again, I can't think of any native Marylanders I know that don't have a noticeable dipthong there.

Last edited by westsideboy; 11-19-2014 at 10:08 PM..
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Old 11-20-2014, 02:15 AM
 
Location: PG County, MD
582 posts, read 739,653 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
"M" is a bilabial because it is articulated with both lips. It is also a nasal, so good call there.
One of your examples was "mine" > "mahn". You described the change as happening before a labial, which /n/ is not, so that's why I thought you might have meant nasals. Like you, i'm not exactly sure what mechanism is causing the monophthongization you've heard. I then thought it might be the nasal before since you described "shine" and "mine" becoming "shine" and "mahn". The only difference between these is the /m/ and the /sh/. On the other hand, "mahn" could simply be derived from "my" becoming "mah".

Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
I don't know the exact mechanism to explain why, but I easily pronounce a word like "I'm" as "Ah'm," or "my" as "ma," but would never say "shy" as "sha." The best I can describe it is that my mouth naturally glides back after the "sh" to a position where I start the "ah" and then glides forward through to the "ee", like a classic dipthong.

Do you say "kite" or "kaht." This normally a good tell word. Again, I can't think of any native Marylanders I know that don't have a noticeable diphthong there.
I say "kite"
I don't think most Virginians would say "kaht" either. Sounds Appalachian.

Other things I remember that I got comments on while living in PA:
- Dropping r's between vowels. "Saint Mary's, Maryland" becomes "Sa' Meh-iz, Meh-alin. (Only when very casual/relaxed).
- "Oi" to "Aw", Short O to "Aw". Oyster, God become "Auster, Gaud"
- Long I to ah in many cases (not all obviously).
- Saying "mood" and "loot" like "miud, liut". (Not sure how to write it, it sounds normal to me but not to them).
- Saying "bury" as "berry" instead of "burr-ee".
- Pronouncing "out and about" like "eoot and abeoot".
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Old 11-20-2014, 10:51 AM
 
Location: Cumberland
4,558 posts, read 7,617,865 times
Reputation: 2769
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tezcatlipoca View Post
One of your examples was "mine" > "mahn". You described the change as happening before a labial, which /n/ is not, so that's why I thought you might have meant nasals. Like you, i'm not exactly sure what mechanism is causing the monophthongization you've heard. I then thought it might be the nasal before since you described "shine" and "mine" becoming "shine" and "mahn". The only difference between these is the /m/ and the /sh/. On the other hand, "mahn" could simply be derived from "my" becoming "mah".



I say "kite"
I don't think most Virginians would say "kaht" either. Sounds Appalachian.

Other things I remember that I got comments on while living in PA:
- Dropping r's between vowels. "Saint Mary's, Maryland" becomes "Sa' Meh-iz, Meh-alin. (Only when very casual/relaxed).
- "Oi" to "Aw", Short O to "Aw". Oyster, God become "Auster, Gaud"
- Long I to ah in many cases (not all obviously).
- Saying "mood" and "loot" like "miud, liut". (Not sure how to write it, it sounds normal to me but not to them).
- Saying "bury" as "berry" instead of "burr-ee".
- Pronouncing "out and about" like "eoot and abeoot".
My bad, I meant "after."
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