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Old 11-20-2014, 01:31 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
27,632 posts, read 24,848,602 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
Nice maps, but they aren't referring to the same things. Hans Kurath's map was based on lexical use, largely farm terminology and animal names that are (well, were) distinct among the different dialect regions of the East Coast. So, does a cow "moo" or "low?" Those are sort of things Dr. Kurath looked at.
Interesting. Thanks for the map. In the second link I provided, there are citations to Thomas, Cassidy and Carver. Any idea what they were looking at?

I found this piece from Baltimore Style magazine to be interesting.

Quote:
Indeed, during the 1950s much of old “Southern Baltimore,” which included large parts of Bolton Hill and Roland Park, held on to its culture of choice. “When I moved to Bolton Hill from Cincinnati in 1951, there was a thick Southern accent here,” says Shivers, the 80-year-old local historian, who still lives there.
http://www.baltimorestyle.com/index.....MBogNd6b.dpuf

Do you attribute that to migration from Appalachia?
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Old 11-20-2014, 02:56 PM
 
619 posts, read 644,722 times
Reputation: 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Interesting. Thanks for the map. In the second link I provided, there are citations to Thomas, Cassidy and Carver. Any idea what they were looking at?

I found this piece from Baltimore Style magazine to be interesting.



http://www.baltimorestyle.com/index.....MBogNd6b.dpuf

Do you attribute that to migration from Appalachia?
Cincinnati borders a southern state, but Baltimore doesn't. Cincinnati is slightly more southern geographically than Baltimore, so I would think at the first glance that the Cincinnati dialect sounds more southern than the Baltimore dialect. Both cities are part of the Midland region.
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Old 11-20-2014, 03:28 PM
 
2,893 posts, read 3,405,576 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Martin View Post
Here's a really good Bawlmore accent.


Polk Audio - Baltimore Speak - YouTube
This guy is terrific -- reminds me of so many people I met growing up in the city of Baltimore. Can anyone seriously claim that this guy's accent is southern or northern? It's unique. Baltimore is (or at least was) culturally unique as well as linguistically. Yes, Baltimore is within a border state, but that's incidental. The point is that it's unique, or at least was.

Caveat -- you won't find many residents of Homeland, Guilford, or Roland Park with this accent . . .
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Old 11-20-2014, 03:54 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
4,564 posts, read 7,634,742 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Interesting. Thanks for the map. In the second link I provided, there are citations to Thomas, Cassidy and Carver. Any idea what they were looking at?

I found this piece from Baltimore Style magazine to be interesting.



http://www.baltimorestyle.com/index.....MBogNd6b.dpuf

Do you attribute that to migration from Appalachia?
I don't think many of the Appalachian transplants would be living in Roland Park, so I am guessing that is old money.

Baltimore really got a double dose of Southernism

1. The initial settlement and culture of the city as an upper South port town
2. The wave of Appalachian-Americans who moved in around WWII.

Of course, there are enough "white ethnics" that show Baltimore was also received a big dose of immigrants who are normally culturally aligned with the North, but this is why Baltimore has a split personality.

As for the stereotypical, super nasally, many consonants optional, break your fact trying to form those vowels version of the Baltimore dialect, I am at a loss. I don't know if it predates the Appalachian migration, was caused by it, or a little of both. It is one of those "I know it when I hear it" dialects, but it is very foreign to my ear, I can't really just listen and figure out what is going on with it.
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Old 11-20-2014, 08:38 PM
 
4,801 posts, read 3,456,268 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
I don't think many of the Appalachian transplants would be living in Roland Park, so I am guessing that is old money.

Baltimore really got a double dose of Southernism

1. The initial settlement and culture of the city as an upper South port town
2. The wave of Appalachian-Americans who moved in around WWII.

Of course, there are enough "white ethnics" that show Baltimore was also received a big dose of immigrants who are normally culturally aligned with the North, but this is why Baltimore has a split personality.

As for the stereotypical, super nasally, many consonants optional, break your fact trying to form those vowels version of the Baltimore dialect, I am at a loss. I don't know if it predates the Appalachian migration, was caused by it, or a little of both. It is one of those "I know it when I hear it" dialects, but it is very foreign to my ear, I can't really just listen and figure out what is going on with it.
Even White ethnics in Bawldamore have the typical accent. Look at Nancy Pelosi. They say their "r's" and don't exhibit Northern vowels like they do in New York.

Last edited by EddieOlSkool; 11-20-2014 at 08:55 PM..
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Old 11-20-2014, 08:54 PM
 
4,801 posts, read 3,456,268 times
Reputation: 2568
Quote:
Originally Posted by personone View Post
To me the Baltimore dialect, while it's doesn't sound exactly like the Philly/South Jersey accent, it definitely sounds like it's in the same 'family' as those accents. Similarly, while not quintessential 'northeast', I definitely do feel remnants of Northeast characteristics. Driving north up 95, when I pass Baltimore is when its starts 'feeling' like I'm near the northeast.
Baltimore's vowels are reminiscent of Southern qualities. Northern Cities Vowel Shift is not present in Baltimore.

What are these Northeast characteristics you speak of?

Quote:
Although, there are quite a few characteristics where Baltimore does differ from the rest of the NE (which have been beaten to death). The city is really a mixed bag. While technically in the south, arguments can be made both ways. Hence the 135 page thread.
Baltimore, like the Northeast has populations of Italians and Jews. But for the Northeast, they are very low. For the South they are high-ish, and for the Northeast they are low.

Baltimore, like the Northeast has many White Democrats. However, if you look at the fact that the city is less than 30% White and 11% of its residents went for Mitt Romney, than you see that the pattern of White Democrat definitely is the smallest of a Northeast pattern. Even Pennsylvania, known as Pennsyltucky in some circles, has larger amounts of White Democrats.

Baltimore, like Pennsylvania has mostly Germans as its White population. However, outside of Pennsylvania, Germans aren't a common Northeast ethnic group. More Midwest than anything else. Maryland's ethnic character is then more in line with the Midwest and Mid-Atlantic, but not the Northeast. PA is an outlier in that case.

Baltimore has a high percentage of Blacks reminiscent of Southern cities. These Blacks don't speak a Northeast dialect, especially with their elongated vowels in "you" and their vowel shifts in words like "carry" and "dog". The Northeast doesn't have these qualities.

Baltimore, like the Northeast has row-houses out the wazoo (I went there recently for a job interview and HOLY CRAP they are everywhere). But, these row-houses were present when the city was "part of the South" in antiquity. To me, row houses signify an architecture reminiscent of Europe and not necessarily Northeast only. But I will say that row-houses are to Baltimore as they are to Philly. I've never seen so many in my life. I was by the harbor and as soon as I left the harbor, BOOM row houses (not exactly but you know what I mean).

So yes, Baltimore can have "feels" of the Northeast in that it's very cosmopolitan and dense, has (albeit very small) populations of White ethnics (who don't sound like New Yorkers even if Italian), is Catholic (as is Louisiana except LA doesn't border a Northeast state), is very Black (like the South), and is part of a very prominent corridor of cities in the East Coast Megalopolis. So I guess there are *some* "Northeast" traits of Baltimore, that you can pretty much find in many cities.
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Old 11-21-2014, 10:18 AM
 
194 posts, read 165,374 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool View Post
Baltimore's vowels are reminiscent of Southern qualities. Northern Cities Vowel Shift is not present in Baltimore.

What are these Northeast characteristics you speak of?



Baltimore, like the Northeast has populations of Italians and Jews. But for the Northeast, they are very low. For the South they are high-ish, and for the Northeast they are low.

Baltimore, like the Northeast has many White Democrats. However, if you look at the fact that the city is less than 30% White and 11% of its residents went for Mitt Romney, than you see that the pattern of White Democrat definitely is the smallest of a Northeast pattern. Even Pennsylvania, known as Pennsyltucky in some circles, has larger amounts of White Democrats.

Baltimore, like Pennsylvania has mostly Germans as its White population. However, outside of Pennsylvania, Germans aren't a common Northeast ethnic group. More Midwest than anything else. Maryland's ethnic character is then more in line with the Midwest and Mid-Atlantic, but not the Northeast. PA is an outlier in that case.

Baltimore has a high percentage of Blacks reminiscent of Southern cities. These Blacks don't speak a Northeast dialect, especially with their elongated vowels in "you" and their vowel shifts in words like "carry" and "dog". The Northeast doesn't have these qualities.

Baltimore, like the Northeast has row-houses out the wazoo (I went there recently for a job interview and HOLY CRAP they are everywhere). But, these row-houses were present when the city was "part of the South" in antiquity. To me, row houses signify an architecture reminiscent of Europe and not necessarily Northeast only. But I will say that row-houses are to Baltimore as they are to Philly. I've never seen so many in my life. I was by the harbor and as soon as I left the harbor, BOOM row houses (not exactly but you know what I mean).

So yes, Baltimore can have "feels" of the Northeast in that it's very cosmopolitan and dense, has (albeit very small) populations of White ethnics (who don't sound like New Yorkers even if Italian), is Catholic (as is Louisiana except LA doesn't border a Northeast state), is very Black (like the South), and is part of a very prominent corridor of cities in the East Coast Megalopolis. So I guess there are *some* "Northeast" traits of Baltimore, that you can pretty much find in many cities.
Just how many things are you going to minimize to make sure Baltimore stays in the South. You're no qualified linguistic expert. The University of Pennsylvania says Baltimore and Philly share an accent that is distinct from The South. Baltimore has higher percentages of Italians than the South does. It's row houses reflect that it leaned somewhat Northeastern even when it was Southern. It has an industry much more like a Northern city than a Southern one and received a huge influx of blacks during the Great Migration. Baltimore is not a Southern city today. It is mixed to more like the Northeast. Same for DC. Of course you're not interested in other peoples views you'll stand by yours even at gunpoint. Grrrr. So stubborn.
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Old 11-21-2014, 02:11 PM
 
56 posts, read 57,530 times
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Well said.
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Old 11-21-2014, 06:14 PM
 
4,801 posts, read 3,456,268 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball freak View Post
Just how many things are you going to minimize to make sure Baltimore stays in the South. You're no qualified linguistic expert. The University of Pennsylvania says Baltimore and Philly share an accent that is distinct from The South.
Ignore what the U of PA says when it disagrees with you.

Quote:
Baltimore has higher percentages of Italians than the South does.
By how much? Slightly more than VA, and WAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYY less than Philly. The Bmore percentages are closer to VA than they are to Philly. Wonder why????

Quote:
It's row houses reflect that it leaned somewhat Northeastern even when it was Southern.
So did Richmond VA also do this?

Quote:
It has an industry much more like a Northern city than a Southern one and received a huge influx of blacks during the Great Migration.
It has an industry similar to the Rust Belt. So does that make it Midwestern?

Tell me how industry makes culture?

Quote:
Baltimore is not a Southern city today. It is mixed to more like the Northeast. Same for DC. Of course you're not interested in other peoples views you'll stand by yours even at gunpoint. Grrrr. So stubborn.
Until MD officially changes regions from the South to the Northeast, I see no reason in calling it such. All you're doing is making arbitrary claims based on subjective criteria in order to make it Northeastern.

When you say mixed, how do you even mean? It's a city that is mostly Black (like the South), has low amounts of White ethnics (like the South, similar to Virginia), has a Southern accent, and has Southern traits like a Confederate monument. However, because it's close to Pennsylvania, shares similarities like German ancestry and culture leftovers (also common in the Midwest), and even German language inflections like pronouncing "th" like "d" (dem O's hon). So yes, it has traits that are atypical of traditional Southern stereotypes, owing to its existence as a border state. It also the most Democrat Southern state (with 42.6% of Whites being Democrats) and has strict gun laws and many nanny-state politics reminiscent of the Northeast. So politically, it's liberal for a Southern state, conservative for a Northeastern state, diverse for a Southern state, but very much ethnically homogeneous for a Northeastern state. It is also Catholic like many Northeastern states.

Here is where you and I differ. I don't think Baltimore is an unequivocal Southern city. I think it's a city in the South. You on the other hand are convinced it's unequivocally Northeastern. Same thing with the whole state of Maryland. Tell me, does Maryland share more in common with New York State (the quintessential Northeastern state) than with Virginia?

The same argument that makes Maryland not Southern can also be used of a state like Louisiana (Catholic, White ethnics), but Louisiana is solidly Republican and has more of a redneck association which is why nobody would even consider it not the South (being the last state before the Gulf of Mexico also helps). Maryland's cosmopolitan feel overshadows its Appalachian and Tidewater locales because most of the population is concentrated in cosmopolitan areas like DC and Bmore, and the South isn't traditionally associated with big cities or being near Philadelphia. However, when you have big Southern cities than lean left, are big transportation hubs, and are losing their Southern character, what do you make of that?
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Old 11-21-2014, 06:26 PM
 
4,801 posts, read 3,456,268 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamish Forbes View Post
This guy is terrific -- reminds me of so many people I met growing up in the city of Baltimore. Can anyone seriously claim that this guy's accent is southern or northern? It's unique. Baltimore is (or at least was) culturally unique as well as linguistically. Yes, Baltimore is within a border state, but that's incidental. The point is that it's unique, or at least was.

Caveat -- you won't find many residents of Homeland, Guilford, or Roland Park with this accent . . .
His accent is way closer to Southern than it is to Northeastern dialects like Boston, New York, or New England accents. I also hear some Appalachian in his dialect, in words like "arn" (iron). The vowels give it away. They resemble a character of that is present in the South, not the Northeast. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_American_English

Just hear how he says words like "police" and "down". Very Southern.

I agree it is very unique, but if anyone had to place it in the Northeast, Philly would be the closest place (aka the city closest to the South). Nobody would place it in NY or MA, or the rest of New England. I'd venture to say that outside from Tidewater (another Southern dialect), it's the most British sounding dialect of the US. Like how the "th" sound becomes an "f" sound, reminiscent of West England or even African-American Vernacular English (very Southern infused).

I don't think anyone is actually disagreeing about the Southern aspect of Baltimore's language, though. Even the naysayers of Maryland being Southern will at the very least say Baltimore is Southern influenced. Funny, I still don't see where much of the Northeast influence is, though. Probably in the way they say "youse". Definitely it's own form of "youse" though. Not "yas" which is more New York or "yoos" which is more Upper Midwest. It's more "yeeoos", kind of a Southern way of saying "youse". I'm wondering if its use came to be from the Irish or the Germans.

Last edited by EddieOlSkool; 11-21-2014 at 06:35 PM..
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