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Old 11-22-2014, 12:44 PM
 
619 posts, read 643,912 times
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People need to stop thinking about placing Maryland in the south. Maryland is too far north to be even considered a southern state. Especially when including states farther south and west, such as Louisiana and Florida.
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Old 11-22-2014, 12:56 PM
 
Location: Oxford, CT
3,556 posts, read 2,325,625 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muppethammer26 View Post
People need to stop thinking about placing Maryland in the south. Maryland is too far north to be even considered a southern state. Especially when including states farther south and west, such as Louisiana and Florida.
No it's not. People need to stop assuming that Maryland isn't part of the south despite all of the evidence to the contrary.

You're like a child with his fingers in his ears going "la la la la"
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Old 11-22-2014, 02:32 PM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
2,387 posts, read 1,221,902 times
Reputation: 2512
Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool View Post
Baltimore's vowels are reminiscent of Southern qualities. Northern Cities Vowel Shift is not present in Baltimore.

What are these Northeast characteristics you speak of?



Baltimore, like the Northeast has populations of Italians and Jews. But for the Northeast, they are very low. For the South they are high-ish, and for the Northeast they are low.

Baltimore, like the Northeast has many White Democrats. However, if you look at the fact that the city is less than 30% White and 11% of its residents went for Mitt Romney, than you see that the pattern of White Democrat definitely is the smallest of a Northeast pattern. Even Pennsylvania, known as Pennsyltucky in some circles, has larger amounts of White Democrats.

Baltimore, like Pennsylvania has mostly Germans as its White population. However, outside of Pennsylvania, Germans aren't a common Northeast ethnic group. More Midwest than anything else. Maryland's ethnic character is then more in line with the Midwest and Mid-Atlantic, but not the Northeast. PA is an outlier in that case.

Baltimore has a high percentage of Blacks reminiscent of Southern cities. These Blacks don't speak a Northeast dialect, especially with their elongated vowels in "you" and their vowel shifts in words like "carry" and "dog". The Northeast doesn't have these qualities.

Baltimore, like the Northeast has row-houses out the wazoo (I went there recently for a job interview and HOLY CRAP they are everywhere). But, these row-houses were present when the city was "part of the South" in antiquity. To me, row houses signify an architecture reminiscent of Europe and not necessarily Northeast only. But I will say that row-houses are to Baltimore as they are to Philly. I've never seen so many in my life. I was by the harbor and as soon as I left the harbor, BOOM row houses (not exactly but you know what I mean).

So yes, Baltimore can have "feels" of the Northeast in that it's very cosmopolitan and dense, has (albeit very small) populations of White ethnics (who don't sound like New Yorkers even if Italian), is Catholic (as is Louisiana except LA doesn't border a Northeast state), is very Black (like the South), and is part of a very prominent corridor of cities in the East Coast Megalopolis. So I guess there are *some* "Northeast" traits of Baltimore, that you can pretty much find in many cities.
You answered your own question. To me Baltimore has remnants of NE characteristics. I meant its industrial past, the row home architecture, and the other things you mentioned. I personally could care less whether people put it in the north or south. I also said that arguments could be made either way. If you think it's southern, that's perfectly fine. I can see why you could think that. If other people think it's in the NE, I can see that too. I also mentioned that it really has mixed qualities (a lot of influences from the north and south), which is why there is so much debate about it.
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Old 11-22-2014, 03:13 PM
 
194 posts, read 165,232 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool View Post
Ignore what the U of PA says when it disagrees with you.



By how much? Slightly more than VA, and WAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYY less than Philly. The Bmore percentages are closer to VA than they are to Philly. Wonder why????



So did Richmond VA also do this?



It has an industry similar to the Rust Belt. So does that make it Midwestern?

Tell me how industry makes culture?



Until MD officially changes regions from the South to the Northeast, I see no reason in calling it such. All you're doing is making arbitrary claims based on subjective criteria in order to make it Northeastern.

When you say mixed, how do you even mean? It's a city that is mostly Black (like the South), has low amounts of White ethnics (like the South, similar to Virginia), has a Southern accent, and has Southern traits like a Confederate monument. However, because it's close to Pennsylvania, shares similarities like German ancestry and culture leftovers (also common in the Midwest), and even German language inflections like pronouncing "th" like "d" (dem O's hon). So yes, it has traits that are atypical of traditional Southern stereotypes, owing to its existence as a border state. It also the most Democrat Southern state (with 42.6% of Whites being Democrats) and has strict gun laws and many nanny-state politics reminiscent of the Northeast. So politically, it's liberal for a Southern state, conservative for a Northeastern state, diverse for a Southern state, but very much ethnically homogeneous for a Northeastern state. It is also Catholic like many Northeastern states.

Here is where you and I differ. I don't think Baltimore is an unequivocal Southern city. I think it's a city in the South. You on the other hand are convinced it's unequivocally Northeastern. Same thing with the whole state of Maryland. Tell me, does Maryland share more in common with New York State (the quintessential Northeastern state) than with Virginia?

The same argument that makes Maryland not Southern can also be used of a state like Louisiana (Catholic, White ethnics), but Louisiana is solidly Republican and has more of a redneck association which is why nobody would even consider it not the South (being the last state before the Gulf of Mexico also helps). Maryland's cosmopolitan feel overshadows its Appalachian and Tidewater locales because most of the population is concentrated in cosmopolitan areas like DC and Bmore, and the South isn't traditionally associated with big cities or being near Philadelphia. However, when you have big Southern cities than lean left, are big transportation hubs, and are losing their Southern character, what do you make of that?
You obviously have never glanced at the map I'm referring to. Baltimore has an Italian population only slightly smaller than Chicago. You go by the Census Bureau when defining Maryland when in fact many other organizations place it outside of the South. If Baltimore and DC are Southern than Philadelphia is also Southern. The majority of Marylanders don't consider their State Southern. This is the last communication I make with you. And Louisiana isn't the same argument. Apart from religion, Louisiana is a quintessential Southern state. Maryland is not the South culturally, for the most part linguistically, politically, or demographically apart from African Americans. I've already said this but of course you believe what you want to believe and not what others tell you. As you continue to prove to me you are a broken record and waste of time. I'd debate this with you into the next century but I actually have a life outside this forum.
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Old 11-23-2014, 01:18 PM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
2,387 posts, read 1,221,902 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball freak View Post
You obviously have never glanced at the map I'm referring to. Baltimore has an Italian population only slightly smaller than Chicago. You go by the Census Bureau when defining Maryland when in fact many other organizations place it outside of the South. If Baltimore and DC are Southern than Philadelphia is also Southern. The majority of Marylanders don't consider their State Southern. This is the last communication I make with you. And Louisiana isn't the same argument. Apart from religion, Louisiana is a quintessential Southern state. Maryland is not the South culturally, for the most part linguistically, politically, or demographically apart from African Americans. I've already said this but of course you believe what you want to believe and not what others tell you. As you continue to prove to me you are a broken record and waste of time. I'd debate this with you into the next century but I actually have a life outside this forum.

I agree with most of your post, except for the bolded. Outside of NYC and Philly, Chicago has the next highest number of Italians in terms of raw numbers (not percentages).

*I don't know the rules for posting links, but if you look at the Orders of Son's of Italy's website; according to them, in the 2000 Census, Chicago had the 3rd highest Italian American population (behind NYC and Philly) with 101,900. Baltimore wasn't even in the top 10, and the 10th highest city (San Fran) only had 39,200. I couldn't find more recent data, but I think someone posted recent data on here that DC actually had a higher Italian population than Baltimore. I could be wrong about that, but Baltimore definitely has a significantly smaller Italian population than Chicago's (and even more so if you include the suburbs and surrounding areas).

If someone has the recent numbers comparing Chicago and Baltimore, I would like to see them. I agree with pretty much everything else you said about Maryland though
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Old 11-23-2014, 03:33 PM
 
4,801 posts, read 3,448,212 times
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Whether South-denier Marylanders admit this or not, theirs isn't the only state subject to scrutiny of being Southern or not. Missouri, Texas, Oklahoma, Florida, and to a lesser extent Kentucky, all are routinely questioned of true Southern status. They all have traits of surrounding areas (and Oklahoma is the hardest to classify). What they share in common is they all are different from their Deep South counterparts because they have aspects seen in the surrounding Census designated areas. Missouri and Oklahoma have Midwestern traits, Texas has Southwestern traits (I made a thread about Texas being Southern and it got just as heated as this one), Florida has Midwestern, Northeastern, and Caribbean traits, and Kentucky is Midwest lite with a dash of Appalachia (which many people don't consider Southern but its own entity). West Virginia is probably the most confusing state of all, having "feels" like Ohio, Pittsburgh, Virginia, and Maryland, being the most identity disordered of all Census Designated Southern States. Even Virginia is sometimes questioned as being truly Southern, and some people who think MD is not Southern also think VA isn't Southern, either.

I do find it funny though that Northern Maryland's Carroll County which is bordering PA is one of the 100 most conservative counties in the country. This place definitely doesn't share the same feelings as say, Baltimore County (remember the whole English as an official language thing?). Like all border states, Maryland will always be debated as to whether it is Southern enough in culture to classify as Southern. It is NOT unique.

Here is how MD is Southern:
Dialect (vowels reminiscent of Southern character, Northern Cities Vowel Shift absent even in big cities)
Low numbers of White ethnics for the Northeast
Lowest number of White Democrats in the Mid-Atlantic
Climate
Has a history of being Southern

Here is how MD is Northern:
Politics/government (more White Democrats than other Southern states excluding Florida)
More white ethnics than other Southern states (except Louisiana)
More metropolitan (which like it not seems to be associated with the North more than the South despite Southern cities, you know, existing)
More of an industrial and seaport history than the South (it's more of a Rust Belt type city in this regard)

Just like other border states, this argument cannot be settled. We who say it's the South know that the Northern tendencies are there. We don't hide the fact that it's got more White Democrats or has a nanny state feel or restrictive gun laws similar to the North. However, those who argue for its status as the North refuse to see anything Southern in it.

Last edited by EddieOlSkool; 11-23-2014 at 03:42 PM..
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Old 11-23-2014, 03:51 PM
 
194 posts, read 165,232 times
Reputation: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool View Post
Whether South-denier Marylanders admit this or not, theirs isn't the only state subject to scrutiny of being Southern or not. Missouri, Texas, Oklahoma, Florida, and to a lesser extent Kentucky, all are routinely questioned of true Southern status. They all have traits of surrounding areas (and Oklahoma is the hardest to classify). What they share in common is they all are different from their Deep South counterparts because they have aspects seen in the surrounding Census designated areas. Missouri and Oklahoma have Midwestern traits, Texas has Southwestern traits (I made a thread about Texas being Southern and it got just as heated as this one), Florida has Midwestern, Northeastern, and Caribbean traits, and Kentucky is Midwest lite with a dash of Appalachia (which many people don't consider Southern but its own entity). West Virginia is probably the most confusing state of all, having "feels" like Ohio, Pittsburgh, Virginia, and Maryland, being the most identity disordered of all Census Designated Southern States. Even Virginia is sometimes questioned as being truly Southern, and some people who think MD is not Southern also think VA isn't Southern, either.

I do find it funny though that Northern Maryland's Carroll County which is bordering PA is one of the 100 most conservative counties in the country. This place definitely doesn't share the same feelings as say, Baltimore County (remember the whole English as an official language thing?). Like all border states, Maryland will always be debated as to whether it is Southern enough in culture to classify as Southern. It is NOT unique.

Here is how MD is Southern:
Dialect (vowels reminiscent of Southern character, Northern Cities Vowel Shift absent even in big cities)
Low numbers of White ethnics for the Northeast
Lowest number of White Democrats in the Mid-Atlantic
Climate
Has a history of being Southern

Here is how MD is Northern:
Politics/government (more White Democrats than other Southern states excluding Florida)
More white ethnics than other Southern states (except Louisiana)
More metropolitan (which like it not seems to be associated with the North more than the South despite Southern cities, you know, existing)
More of an industrial and seaport history than the South (it's more of a Rust Belt type city in this regard)

Just like other border states, this argument cannot be settled. We who say it's the South know that the Northern tendencies are there. We don't hide the fact that it's got more White Democrats or has a nanny state feel or restrictive gun laws similar to the North. However, those who argue for its status as the North refuse to see anything Southern in it.
Last post for real this time. Now you've gone too far. Missouri my home state is a Midwestern state by today's standards. St. Louis and Kansas City are unquestionably Midwestern from a modern standpoint. Oklahoma has zero Midwest traits at all. You know next to nothing about regions. Maryland for the most part doesn't have a Southern dialect. If it does then Philly has a Southern accent which it does not. The fact you think Oklahoma has any Midwest traits at all tells me all I need to know about you. Seaports don't make a Southern city either. History of being Southern doesn't make a place Southern necessarily either. Border states lean one way or the other today. Florida does not have any Midwestern or Northeastern characteristics. It is a Southern state first before anything else. I love watching you struggle to breathe on here. Maryland South deniers happen to be the majority of Marylanders so you basically just called most Marylanders ignorant . I guess you're judge, jury, and executioner. Good thing you're not President.

Last edited by Ball freak; 11-23-2014 at 04:04 PM..
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Old 11-23-2014, 03:52 PM
 
1,801 posts, read 1,753,597 times
Reputation: 1641
Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool View Post
Here is how MD is Southern:
Dialect (vowels reminiscent of Southern character, Northern Cities Vowel Shift absent even in big cities)
Low numbers of White ethnics for the Northeast
Lowest number of White Democrats in the Mid-Atlantic
Climate
Has a history of being Southern
As a unbiased non-American I'd say Maryland is a Southern state because it was a slave state in the civil war era.
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Old 11-23-2014, 04:07 PM
 
194 posts, read 165,232 times
Reputation: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by personone View Post
I agree with most of your post, except for the bolded. Outside of NYC and Philly, Chicago has the next highest number of Italians in terms of raw numbers (not percentages).

*I don't know the rules for posting links, but if you look at the Orders of Son's of Italy's website; according to them, in the 2000 Census, Chicago had the 3rd highest Italian American population (behind NYC and Philly) with 101,900. Baltimore wasn't even in the top 10, and the 10th highest city (San Fran) only had 39,200. I couldn't find more recent data, but I think someone posted recent data on here that DC actually had a higher Italian population than Baltimore. I could be wrong about that, but Baltimore definitely has a significantly smaller Italian population than Chicago's (and even more so if you include the suburbs and surrounding areas).

If someone has the recent numbers comparing Chicago and Baltimore, I would like to see them. I agree with pretty much everything else you said about Maryland though
I'm talking as a percentage of population not sheer overall numbers.
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Old 11-23-2014, 04:09 PM
 
194 posts, read 165,232 times
Reputation: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by drro View Post
As a unbiased non-American I'd say Maryland is a Southern state because it was a slave state in the civil war era.
Anyone with common sense knows The civil war era doesn't define what a historic border state is today. Slave states are not necessarily Southern states today.
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