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Old 12-07-2014, 09:58 AM
 
194 posts, read 165,007 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf39us View Post
Oh, my mistake... I figured total would matter idk, a LOT more.
Well Eddieolskool is trying to argue that Maryland is politically distinct from the rest of the Northeast because of its white voters which I have just proven false. Maryland is a solidly blue state unlike Virginia which in recent times has begun showing traits of a swing state. Dailykos.com
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Old 12-07-2014, 10:15 AM
 
Location: Oxford, CT
3,556 posts, read 2,321,582 times
Reputation: 2898
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball freak View Post
Well Eddieolskool is trying to argue that Maryland is politically distinct from the rest of the Northeast because of its white voters which I have just proven false. Maryland is a solidly blue state unlike Virginia which in recent times has begun showing traits of a swing state. Dailykos.com
So the quantifier here is how many times a state voted Dem? I mean, it's looking like VA is next on the list of "no longer southern turned Northeast" states.

I suppose in 50 years you'll be arguing that VA in not southern?
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Old 12-07-2014, 03:02 PM
 
194 posts, read 165,007 times
Reputation: 109
Politically is the only way Virginia has changed outside of Northern Virginia, so no I wouldn't expect a change in 50 years.
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Old 12-07-2014, 03:21 PM
 
Location: Oxford, CT
3,556 posts, read 2,321,582 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball freak View Post
Politically is the only way Virginia has changed outside of Northern Virginia, so no I wouldn't expect a change in 50 years.
That's not the point, if it did happen to change in all of those ways, you'd advocate for it's inclusion to the northeast (after of course Maryland).

If you WOULDN'T advocate for it's inclusion, then your logic would be faulty or at the very least inconsistent.
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Old 12-07-2014, 04:20 PM
 
194 posts, read 165,007 times
Reputation: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf39us View Post
That's not the point, if it did happen to change in all of those ways, you'd advocate for it's inclusion to the northeast (after of course Maryland).

If you WOULDN'T advocate for it's inclusion, then your logic would be faulty or at the very least inconsistent.
Ok yes that is correct. But the point is that hasn't happened and is very unlikely to happen. Besides Northern Virginia, the rest of Virginia, which is the majority of the state, is still every bit as Southern as it has always been. Therefore I don't anticipate a change happening anytime soon.
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Old 12-07-2014, 05:42 PM
 
4,801 posts, read 3,436,631 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball freak
Btw only 44.3 percent of White Pennsylvanians voted for Obama in 2012. So much for the argument of Maryland's 42.6 percent making it Southern.
Hold on there, partner. Before you go back to your regularly scheduled strawman arguments, please show me where I claimed 42% of Whites voting for Obama made a state Southern. I said it's the LOWEST figure in the "Northeast" if we include Maryland.

Quote:
Delaware was only 45.6 percent. Virginia on the other hand was 34 percent. Your argument of Maryland being Southern politically just went out the window. No Southern state had 40 percent of the white vote.
Because said Southern states have no large percentage of Ashkenazi Jews, which are considered White by the Census. But you conveniently ignored that.

Quote:
Florida had 37 percent. Maryland had more democratic white voters than Ohio.
MD also has more Jews than Ohio does.

Quote:
And if you've ever heard Jim Cramer speak that is what a Philly accent sounds like. You tell me how that sounds Southern.
He doesn't sound as Southern as Nancy Pelosi or Mel Kiper, I'll tell you that much. Probably because he's not from the South. You tell me he sounds like those two people. Remember when I compared a South Philly Italian to Nancy Pelosi, a Baltimore Italian? They sounded NOTHING like each other. You would expect them to have maybe similar ethnolects coming from the same linguistic region, but they don't. Philly's accent is Southern inflected, so it won't sound as Southern as Baltimore, which has "a distinct Southern character". Philly (outside of South Philly) is sort of a hybrid Southern/Northeastern accent. Words like "sewda" and "hayouse" can be heard in that accent, showing vowels similar to the South. People in the South (except the Deep South) also say "sewda" and "hayouse". Philly may be Southern inflected but to say it doesn't have Northeastern characteristics is ridiculous.

Now, I've shown you how Philly's accent has Southern characteristics, can you show me how Baltimore's accent has NORTHEASTERN characteristics?

Quote:
The University of Pennsylvania defines Baltimore and Phillys dialect as distinct from Southern dialect according to their map. You are just manipulating fact after fact to support your thesis, which is completely contradictory to the evidence of what Maryland and Baltimore is from a modern standpoint.
Same University researchers happily conclude that Philly also has Southern inflections. It's not "manipulating" data when I am quoting what someone else said; you just don't like seeing said facts.
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Old 12-07-2014, 05:58 PM
 
4,801 posts, read 3,436,631 times
Reputation: 2568
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball freak View Post
Politically is the only way Virginia has changed outside of Northern Virginia, so no I wouldn't expect a change in 50 years.
Put a bunch of Jews in Virginia, and you will instantly see VA's White voting patterns go into the high 30s or low 40s the same way MD is. It's a proven fact that Jews are a strong Democrat voting bloc, and it's also a fact that most Jews in the US are Ashkenazi, who having their cultural origins in Eastern Europe are considered White. This is why you see Florida's numbers go way higher than the Deep South when it comes to White voting patterns, as it's the state of the Deep South that has the most Jews.

Also, I have to bring up the fact that you used New York as an example that MD is "Northeastern" because of its large German population. The problem with your argument is this: it's not based in reality. Let's look at the states with the highest German populations, and see how "Northeastern" Germans are in this list of Top 20 states with most German ancestry by percentage:

  1. North Dakota 46.8
  2. Wisconsin 43.9
  3. South Dakota 44.5
  4. Nebraska 42.7
  5. Minnesota 38.4
  6. Iowa 35.7
  7. Montana 27.0
  8. Ohio 26.5
  9. Wyoming 25.9
  10. Kansas 25.8
  11. Pennsylvania 25.4
  12. Missouri 23.5
  13. Indiana 22.6
  14. Colorado 22.0
  15. Oregon 20.5
  16. Michigan 20.4
  17. Illinois 19.6
  18. Idaho 18.8
  19. Washington 18.8
  20. Maryland 15.7
National Average: 15.2
New York: 11.2


New York ranks as 32nd in terms of German population. That's not even the top 50%. Maryland is at number 20, only .5 higher than the national average. That isn't exactly a high number to write home about. Maryland's Black population largely exceeds that, almost double. Ethnically, that makes MD more Southern than it does make it Northeastern. Let's not forget the fact that only TWO Northeastern states are in the top half of German population percentage (and Delaware BARELY made the cut coming in at 22), lending credence to the fact that Maryland isn't ethnically Northeastern or even Midwestern. West Virginia, Kentucky, and Oklahoma all have higher percentages of Germans than does New York or other Northeastern states. And what do those states have in common with Maryland? That they are all in the South. The Northeast isn't exactly a bastion for Germans, with the majority of Northeastern states being in the bottom 25. The South isn't technically a haven for Germans, either, and the other Southern states that have numbers in the teens like Maryland are all border states. Indeed, Maryland can't be called Deep South because of its German population but it definitely can't be called Northeast, either. It has border state numbers of Germans. Besides which, the German population of Maryland is NOT the same as the Pennsylvania Dutch, as MD's Germans are more Catholic.

One argument that I love refuting is how the presence of Maryland's Germans are ALWAYS used as "proof" that Maryland is more aligned with the Northeast.

Now let's look at Maryland counties with the most amount of Germans, by percentage:

Garrett
Washington
Carroll

Now, isn't it interesting that all three of those counties are also the three most REPUBLICAN counties of Maryland?

I love it how when Maryland is German, it's all of a sudden more Northeastern, the same way that when Maryland is Democrat, it's all of a sudden more Northeastern. Here's the problem; the two aren't correlated. The most German counties in Maryland are also heavily Republican, and Garrett county is the MOST Republican county in Maryland. Carroll County also made it into the Top Conservative Counties in the USA. So it just goes to show that Maryland's "Northeastern" ethnic groups don't even align with the Northeast political structure. Blacks will vote Democrat in most places, and as shown here, Germans in Maryland certainly don't make the place more Democrat by any means. Funny how the most "Northeastern" of Maryland's ethnic group is one of the reasons that conservatives exist in that state in the first place. Kind of how a very Catholic county of St. Mary's is also very Southern in culture. Garrett, Washington, and Carroll counties are significantly more German than most other Maryland counties, too. Funny how when the Germans go up, the Northeastern politics go down.

That's what I love about debating people about Maryland. Everything they use as a "proof text" that Maryland is Northeastern ends up backfiring to actually show how it stands out from the Northeast.

Oh, Maryland is Liberal, therefore Northeastern? It also has the 2nd most Black and Jewish populations (who are loyal Democrats) in the US Designated Southeast. Take those away and Maryland loses its high Democrat votes.
Oh, Maryland is ethnically German, therefore Northeastern? It's very German counties also are the most Republican!
Oh, Maryland is linguistically similar to Philadelphia? Funnily enough, the same researches who concluded this also admit that Philadelphia is the most "Southern sounding Northern city".
Oh, Maryland is ethnically White? Which is why Maryland's White ethnics like Germans make it more Republican? Or also how its Jews make it more liberal, thus adding to the White Democrat vote? And prominent Jews admit they live in the South?
Oh, Maryland is culturally Northern? Which is why in its "proof text Northeastern city" of Baltimore, Confederate monuments outnumber Union monuments, and why the state song has not been changed to remove the mention of Northern scum? Or how the region known for blue crab (what makes it "super Northeastern") is also the same one known for Southern hospitality? Or how chicken boxes are really popular? (for the Southern hospitality comment, read the OFFICIAL Maryland tourism site: Eastern Shore)

But yeah, let's keep saying that all traces of the South have completely vanished from Maryland. Let's also keep pretending that Germans make Maryland more Northeastern. Maryland can't help but be NOT Northeastern.

Also one more for those DC people:

Quote:
As a southern city, Washington has always had a significant African American population
Source: http://washington.org/DC-information...ton-dc-history


Last edited by EddieOlSkool; 12-07-2014 at 06:36 PM..
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Old 12-08-2014, 04:34 AM
 
194 posts, read 165,007 times
Reputation: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool View Post
Put a bunch of Jews in Virginia, and you will instantly see VA's White voting patterns go into the high 30s or low 40s the same way MD is. It's a proven fact that Jews are a strong Democrat voting bloc, and it's also a fact that most Jews in the US are Ashkenazi, who having their cultural origins in Eastern Europe are considered White. This is why you see Florida's numbers go way higher than the Deep South when it comes to White voting patterns, as it's the state of the Deep South that has the most Jews.

Also, I have to bring up the fact that you used New York as an example that MD is "Northeastern" because of its large German population. The problem with your argument is this: it's not based in reality. Let's look at the states with the highest German populations, and see how "Northeastern" Germans are in this list of Top 20 states with most German ancestry by percentage:

  1. North Dakota 46.8
  2. Wisconsin 43.9
  3. South Dakota 44.5
  4. Nebraska 42.7
  5. Minnesota 38.4
  6. Iowa 35.7
  7. Montana 27.0
  8. Ohio 26.5
  9. Wyoming 25.9
  10. Kansas 25.8
  11. Pennsylvania 25.4
  12. Missouri 23.5
  13. Indiana 22.6
  14. Colorado 22.0
  15. Oregon 20.5
  16. Michigan 20.4
  17. Illinois 19.6
  18. Idaho 18.8
  19. Washington 18.8
  20. Maryland 15.7
National Average: 15.2
New York: 11.2


New York ranks as 32nd in terms of German population. That's not even the top 50%. Maryland is at number 20, only .5 higher than the national average. That isn't exactly a high number to write home about. Maryland's Black population largely exceeds that, almost double. Ethnically, that makes MD more Southern than it does make it Northeastern. Let's not forget the fact that only TWO Northeastern states are in the top half of German population percentage (and Delaware BARELY made the cut coming in at 22), lending credence to the fact that Maryland isn't ethnically Northeastern or even Midwestern. West Virginia, Kentucky, and Oklahoma all have higher percentages of Germans than does New York or other Northeastern states. And what do those states have in common with Maryland? That they are all in the South. The Northeast isn't exactly a bastion for Germans, with the majority of Northeastern states being in the bottom 25. The South isn't technically a haven for Germans, either, and the other Southern states that have numbers in the teens like Maryland are all border states. Indeed, Maryland can't be called Deep South because of its German population but it definitely can't be called Northeast, either. It has border state numbers of Germans. Besides which, the German population of Maryland is NOT the same as the Pennsylvania Dutch, as MD's Germans are more Catholic.

One argument that I love refuting is how the presence of Maryland's Germans are ALWAYS used as "proof" that Maryland is more aligned with the Northeast.

Now let's look at Maryland counties with the most amount of Germans, by percentage:

Garrett
Washington
Carroll

Now, isn't it interesting that all three of those counties are also the three most REPUBLICAN counties of Maryland?

I love it how when Maryland is German, it's all of a sudden more Northeastern, the same way that when Maryland is Democrat, it's all of a sudden more Northeastern. Here's the problem; the two aren't correlated. The most German counties in Maryland are also heavily Republican, and Garrett county is the MOST Republican county in Maryland. Carroll County also made it into the Top Conservative Counties in the USA. So it just goes to show that Maryland's "Northeastern" ethnic groups don't even align with the Northeast political structure. Blacks will vote Democrat in most places, and as shown here, Germans in Maryland certainly don't make the place more Democrat by any means. Funny how the most "Northeastern" of Maryland's ethnic group is one of the reasons that conservatives exist in that state in the first place. Kind of how a very Catholic county of St. Mary's is also very Southern in culture. Garrett, Washington, and Carroll counties are significantly more German than most other Maryland counties, too. Funny how when the Germans go up, the Northeastern politics go down.

That's what I love about debating people about Maryland. Everything they use as a "proof text" that Maryland is Northeastern ends up backfiring to actually show how it stands out from the Northeast.

Oh, Maryland is Liberal, therefore Northeastern? It also has the 2nd most Black and Jewish populations (who are loyal Democrats) in the US Designated Southeast. Take those away and Maryland loses its high Democrat votes.
Oh, Maryland is ethnically German, therefore Northeastern? It's very German counties also are the most Republican!
Oh, Maryland is linguistically similar to Philadelphia? Funnily enough, the same researches who concluded this also admit that Philadelphia is the most "Southern sounding Northern city".
Oh, Maryland is ethnically White? Which is why Maryland's White ethnics like Germans make it more Republican? Or also how its Jews make it more liberal, thus adding to the White Democrat vote? And prominent Jews admit they live in the South?
Oh, Maryland is culturally Northern? Which is why in its "proof text Northeastern city" of Baltimore, Confederate monuments outnumber Union monuments, and why the state song has not been changed to remove the mention of Northern scum? Or how the region known for blue crab (what makes it "super Northeastern") is also the same one known for Southern hospitality? Or how chicken boxes are really popular? (for the Southern hospitality comment, read the OFFICIAL Maryland tourism site: Eastern Shore)

But yeah, let's keep saying that all traces of the South have completely vanished from Maryland. Let's also keep pretending that Germans make Maryland more Northeastern. Maryland can't help but be NOT Northeastern.

Also one more for those DC people:



Source: http://washington.org/DC-information...ton-dc-history

Ok so I was wrong about New York but I was correct about Pennsylvania so nice try. Face it. You've lost. German is certainly proof Maryland isn't Southern. The 1997 dialect studies prove most of Maryland isn't Southern. Quit your rambling it's unbecoming of you. Civil War monuments have nothing to do with culture from a modern standpoint. Maryland sent more Union regiments to fight for the state than Confederate. Cuisine, religion, social events, etc. are what define a city's culture. Up until sweet tea moved out of the South it was largely absent in most of Maryland to my knowledge. I'm sorry but to say all Jews are liberal is terribly inaccurate. Just look at Ben Bernanke. I happen to be one and I'm moderate. The fact is you lost the political argument. Yes it has a lot of blacks which is a Southern trait but much of that could owe to Washington being the political capital of this country. I can tell you're getting frustrated so I'll just leave you to the rest of the wolves on here. The point is tons of Jews would have to flock to Virginia to get the white votes numbers up and those demographics aren't there right now.

Last edited by Ball freak; 12-08-2014 at 04:45 AM..
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Old 12-08-2014, 06:19 AM
 
Location: Greenville, NC
2,051 posts, read 4,843,973 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball freak View Post
Well Eddieolskool is trying to argue that Maryland is politically distinct from the rest of the Northeast because of its white voters which I have just proven false. Maryland is a solidly blue state unlike Virginia which in recent times has begun showing traits of a swing state. Dailykos.com
Solidly blue? You really need to check into that. Anne Arundel County just put a Republican into the county executive's office. Gerrymandering of the US Congressional districts has caused the vote to always swing blue. It's certainly not because Maryland is solidly blue. Anne Arundel Co swings back and forth because a lot of the residents are split ticket voters. They tend to vote more for the person than the party. True Northeast states tend to vote single ticket blue, which only proves that they don't want to compromise on anything.

"Maryland is proof that gerrymandering isn't just a Republican pastime, as the state's Democrats redrew those boundaries in 2012. The standout in that state is the 3rd Congressional district, which is the nation's second-most gerrymandered and home to Democratic congressman John Sarbanes."

America’s most gerrymandered congressional districts - The Washington Post
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Old 12-08-2014, 06:28 AM
 
Location: Oxford, CT
3,556 posts, read 2,321,582 times
Reputation: 2898
Note to self: according to ball freak, anytime a state loses its southernness, move that state to the northeast region.

Makes sense!

Don't you worry VA, you'll progress to the northeast soon enough lol
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