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Old 02-28-2011, 10:50 AM
 
1,009 posts, read 1,850,856 times
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Hey folks, there is a thread going on in the Pittsburgh forum about how people in Western PA view Western MD. Seems interesting. It can give you further insight as to how northerners of the closest approximation feel about their neighbors to the South!
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Old 02-28-2011, 10:58 AM
 
829 posts, read 2,507,741 times
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I remember 10 years ago we would be talking and say that Md is getting as left and california and mass....well now I truly honestly believe that we are more taxed and regulated then california and mass. I believe a study showed that. Its similar to California in a way. You have orange county that is a very conservative county, along with other rural areas in california, but the liberals of the sanfran/l.a/hollywood run the state politics...the same way with MD...the Eastern Shore/Western areas are conservative but the d.c/baltimore/n.va beauracratic communists run the state. It is actually similar, but I do honestly think that Md. now takes the cake when it comes to being the most regulated and taxed state in America.
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Old 02-28-2011, 11:20 AM
 
Location: Germantown, MD
1,359 posts, read 3,190,467 times
Reputation: 569
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDguy99 View Post
First off, I am talking about the Eastern Shore of Maryland, not the whole of Delmarva. So, yes, I do think everything from Kent County, Maryland southward, including Sussex County and Southern Kent County, Delaware, is Southern. You may see it differently, great, but no one I've ran the question past in the day-to-day has.

Say what you want about government officals saying this and that, but for every government example that claims MD is Northeastern, I can give you one that says it's Southern. A month or so ago, I was on the Southern Governors Association (SGA) web page, and there was an article about Martin O'Malley. There are education bureaus that include Maryland in the South Atlantic. So, obviously, official opinion is split on the issue.

The topic in your "Lawmakers not feeling Southern" link, is really just a reflection of demographics. The people who proposed it were State Senator Catherine E. Pugh, who is a liberal African American from Baltimore City, and others from the DC suburbs. It's no surprise that they would hold that opinion. As westsideboy (I believe that's who it was) already mentioned, LARGE geographic swaths of the state are not culturally Northern. However, due to population being concentrated in central Maryland, you will not see much evidence for this when looking at things such as the legislature.

My point has been that no one can claim that Maryland is 100% Northern. It is beyond a shadow of a doubt that even today (and you did refute this point in a previous post), not just 150 years ago, Southern culture exists in the state to some extent - even if it is confined to the most rural areas of Maryland.
Actually I agree with pretty much everything you just posted (your first and second paragraph in particular basically mirror what I posted). If Maryland didn't have any Southern characteristics then we wouldn't be having this discussion. My opinion has always been that Maryland, as it is today, has more of the typical characteristics of a Northeastern state than it does a Southern one, and has shifted further North on the North/South spectrum since the Civil War.

I certainly don't believe that Maryland is 100% Northeastern and neither are most other states located in the region, such as Pennsylvania, which I mentioned earlier. Virginia definitely isn't 100% Southern as any resident of Northern Virginia will quickly tell you (I've yet to meet a resident who says they live in simply "Virginia," omitting the "Northern"). Very few states are quintessential examples of their region, and every state has unique attributes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
...I find it personally frustrating when posters end up admiting "Yeah, Maryland is a border state," but then continue to argue why this label should then be subject to some sort of "voting" where the majority of our state's residents clustered around the metro areas (of course being transplants or the children of transplants) can outnumber, outvote, and thus change the identity of the state as a whole.

It is a incorrect argument on its face because cultural heritage doesn't follow politically drawn borders, and Maryland has always been one of the states settled in patterns reflecting the North and the South. Maybe this makes us both, maybe it makes us neither? I don't know, but it clearly doesn't make us one or the other.

Anyone who argues otherwise has to type alot of text, present alot of data, and then make that leap of faith that their argument and data actually translates into the identity of all of our state's residents, especially the natives, at a personal level...

...Maybe one day, all of the transplant veneer can be striped off of our state layer by layer to reveal the true masterpiece underneath.
Data and numbers matter to an extent, but of course they don't apply to everyone. Everyone has their own story and culture, each with equal importance, but in the end the majority always rules (which is pretty clear if you look at the permanent supermajorities in Annapolis) however unfair it may be (tyranny of the majority). Maybe that's just my Econ./P. Policy background talking though...

Well we all came here from somewhere else. For the record I'm a 1st generation Marylander and lived here nearly all my life. I guess you would label my parents transplants from Connecticut/New York and their parents international transplants.

Yeah, most of the transplants today are from North of Maryland, but it was the exact opposite during both Great Migrations when thousands of blacks in the South moved north to escape racism/segregation, and during the 1940's when 200,000 Southern whites moved to Baltimore for jobs (which is why the B'more accent has a hint of "Southerness"). Not to mention the huge number of Polish, Irish, and Italian immigrants flocking to Baltimore.
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Old 02-28-2011, 12:06 PM
 
Location: Germantown, MD
1,359 posts, read 3,190,467 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
There are plenty of states both north and south of Maryland that have 1-party rule at the state level. The fact that Maryland's one party rule tending towards leftism does make us more similar to our northern neighbors than our other neighbors. WV is the obvious counter example. It is a state run by Democrats, but is not nearly the nanny-state Maryland is.

I am not sure if Maryland's nanny state tendancies are new or old. It may have to do with the urban population controlling statewide elections, but it may predate that. I don't know enough about Maryland political history to say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
Liberal is an awfully generous term to describe MD politics. Leftist is more appropriate. Liberals normally strive to protect individual rights, while enacting regulations and taxation upon fiscal transactions and businesses. Leftists seek to control both human behavior at the individual and organized/corporate level.

For instance a liberal state like California legalized medical marijuana, a leftist state like Maryland sets up big speed traps with sniff dogs waiting to catch marijuana users. There is a reason people call our state the "People's Republic of Maryland." Leftists also like accomulating lots of information on people, like O'Malley's big push to DNA test people arrested (read that correctly, not convicted, just arrested) of crimes and to "consolidate" all medical records into one database so Big Brother and Big Pharm can take a quick look how all of use the medical health field. Oh, yeah and the redlight/speed cameras. They provide a great survellience tool to see where people are traveling to and from. Leftist governments love this kind of stuff, it is easier to track people and what they do that way.
West Virginia's brand of Democrats seem to be unique to that state, although similar types of socially-conservative blue-dog Democrats can be found out West and elsewhere. Despite it's socialist tendencies I wouldn't call Maryland a "nanny-state" which imho is a pretty extreme term. Yeah and as MDGuy said, despite the universal hatred of them, the speed cameras can't track you

It's interesting you bring this up though since I remember Republican/Conservative (well as conservative as you can be as a MD gov) Bob Ehrlich using his state troopers to spy on activist groups.

from the Balt. Sun:

"The files depict a pattern of spying and surveillance over a 14-month period in 2005 and 2006. During that time, agents infiltrated the Baltimore Pledge of Resistance, a peace group; the Baltimore Coalition Against the Death Penalty; and the Committee to Save Vernon Evans, a death row inmate.

Police entered the names of activists in a law enforcement database of people suspected of being terrorists or drug traffickers, the documents show. Police officials said they did not infringe on the protesters' freedom; the ACLU said that nothing in the documents indicated criminal activity or intent."


from the Wash. Post:

"The Maryland State Police surveillance of advocacy groups was far more extensive than previously acknowledged, with records showing that troopers monitored -- and labeled as terrorists -- activists devoted to such wide-ranging causes as promoting human rights and establishing bike lanes.

Intelligence officers created a voluminous file on Norfolk-based People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, calling the group a "security threat" because of concerns that members would disrupt the circus. Angry consumers fighting a 72 percent electricity rate increase in 2006 were targeted. The DC Anti-War Network, which opposes the Iraq war, was designated a white supremacist group, without explanation."


Not to say that O'Malley has a perfect record on individuals' rights, but thought this was interesting.

Libertarians are more focused on individual rights than liberals/progressives are, who focus more on equity, equality, and equal access to instituions, but I agree that protecting individual rights is important to most liberals, which is why there are future plans to legalize marijuana in Maryland on top of the gay marriage legislation being pushed through the GA now. I also predict the death penalty we be abolished this year. Most liberals however, (including those in Maryland, California, and elsewhere on the WC and in the NE) favor restrictive gun control (unlike libertarians) and government economic intervention, which libertarians are strongly against.

To put it simply (although it really isn't ):

Liberal/Maryland Democrats:
-Socially Liberal
-Economically Liberal/High Govt. Intervention

Libertarian:
-Socially Liberal
-Economically Conservative/Low Govt. Intervention

West Virginia/Blue-Dog Democrat:
-Socially Conservative
-Economically Conservative/High Govt. Intervention
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Old 02-28-2011, 12:16 PM
 
Location: New Haven, CT
200 posts, read 330,121 times
Reputation: 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
Yeah, I said that, and much more. Doesn't seem to make much of a difference in the discussions though. There are a few posters that have clear cut agendas about why they think/want Maryland to be labeled a Northeastern state. Most of it comes back to the stereotypes of NE states being rich, educated, liberal, while the South is poor, ignorant, and conservative. Many of the NE transplants moving to Maryland want to conceive of their new home as being similar to the one they left. It should be no surprise then that they move to the metro part of the state, see what they want to see, then make argument after argument why their observations, opinions, etc. are more valid.

I find it personally frustrating when posters end up admiting "Yeah, Maryland is a border state," but then continue to argue why this label should then be subject to some sort of "voting" where the majority of our state's residents clustered around the metro areas (of course being transplants or the children of transplants) can outnumber, outvote, and thus change the identity of the state as a whole.

It is a incorrect argument on its face because cultural heritage doesn't follow politically drawn borders, and Maryland has always been one of the states settled in patterns reflecting the North and the South. Maybe this makes us both, maybe it makes us neither? I don't know, but it clearly doesn't make us one or the other.

Anyone who argues otherwise has to type alot of text, present alot of data, and then make that leap of faith that their argument and data actually translates into the identity of all of our state's residents, especially the natives, at a personal level.

I would just let it be. Some posters are always going to try and have the last word, as though that somehow means they "win" the argument. Whatever, I don't need anybody else to tell me what Maryland is. I know, I am from here, my parents are from here, my grandparents are from here, my great-grandparents are from here, and so on back to when my ancestors had to build their homes in defense of Indian raids. Sure change happens, but it doesn't erase or change the history of those whose ancestor's directly connect themselves to the past. All change does is layer on top.

Maybe one day, all of the transplant veneer can be striped off of our state layer by layer to reveal the true masterpiece underneath.
I couldn't agree more. The same things that some of these posters present and try to claim to make Maryland northern the same things and claims can go to North Carolina, Virginia and other places in the south. Lets see South Florida is very diverse, the Triangle Area, Asheville, and Charlotte NC along with Northern Virginia and Atlanta, GA are very educated, full of high income, rich residents, voted democrat and are just as liberal as some posters claim that Maryland is. Yet, they are still in the south. Also, Baltimore is a city that I wouldn't call very educated with its high crime and impoverished locals. Maryland just isn't a northern state that just doesn't fit in with New York, New England, New Jersey, etc. All one needs to do really is to watch a episode of the old movie ROOTS to confirm this lol. Note you do not live in a northern state or city if:
1. The city does not have a Puerto Rican day parade unlike Northern Cities as New Haven, Hartford, New York, Philadelphia, and Boston.
2. A KKK base like Annapolis and some other places in Maryland
3. Caprice Classics, Crown Victorias, Licoln Towncars, Dodge Magnums, Grand Marquis, and Pontiac Bonnevilles with large rims are the it cars for urban blacks instead of Sabbs, Hondas, Acura Legends, Acura Vigors, Volvos and BMWs.
4.Below mason dixon line
5.Has southern accents
6.Has Waffle Houses and Swamps
7. Has an extensive slave history along with Jim Crow laws ,segregation, and tobacco history.
8.No bodegas anywhere
9. Gucci Mane, Plies, Waka Flocka, and southern rap is heavily listened to instead of Fabolous, D. Block, Red Cafe,and Cassidy and east coast rappers to name a few.
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Old 02-28-2011, 01:40 PM
 
Location: Edgemere, Maryland
501 posts, read 956,060 times
Reputation: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpterp View Post
during the 1940's when 200,000 Southern whites moved to Baltimore for jobs (which is why the B'more accent has a hint of "Southerness").
Actually, this is incorrect. The Baltimore accent was part Southern way before the Southern migrants you speak of. Did they contribute to the accent? Sure. Are they THE reason for it? No. The Baltimore accent was always in large part Southern Tidewater and Appalachian.
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Old 02-28-2011, 03:14 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
4,564 posts, read 7,632,343 times
Reputation: 2790
[quote=cpterp;18070310]
Data and numbers matter to an extent, but of course they don't apply to everyone. Everyone has their own story and culture, each with equal importance, but in the end the majority always rules (which is pretty clear if you look at the permanent supermajorities in Annapolis) however unfair it may be (tyranny of the majority). Maybe that's just my Econ./P. Policy background talking though...QUOTE]


Majority rules where and what exactly? We vote for elected officials, occasionally a controversial item will go to referendum. In those cases majority does rule. You are talking about politics, not sociology.

When it comes to cultural identity, different cultural groups exists side by side in many places. Sometimes these groups are divided by political boundaries (think French v Germans) sometimes these groups live side by side in the same "state" or "country." Each group maintains their language, cultural traditions and lifestyles. The Transylvania region of Romania is an example of this. There are Romanians, Hungarians, and Gypsies all living in the same "state." No doubt in politics the "majority" group makes most of the political decisions, but this in no way, shape or form eliminates the sociological existance of the other groups living in the same "state."

If you don't believe me find a Hungarian and tell him that Transylvania is Romanian now because they outnumber the Hungarians (I would stand outside of spiting/swinging distance if you make try and make this claim.)

If you really think about it, your way of trying to squeeze cultural sociology into political realities leads to incredible contradictions. Since Maryland has a majority of white residents would you claim that "majority rules" and Maryland is a "white" state? Is Maryland a "straight" state, because there are more hetrosexuals than homosexuals. Of course not, it is ridiculous to say such things. It is equally wrong to say Maryland is a "Northern" state because there are more "Northerners" than "Southerners." Both can exist in the same state at the same time. It is OK, not everything in the world of cultural identity is clear cut. You don't need to try and hammer a round peg into a square hole, because it is clear (to me at least) the "majority rules" argument is misapplied to this subject.
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Old 02-28-2011, 03:28 PM
 
Location: Edgemere, Maryland
501 posts, read 956,060 times
Reputation: 175
Westsideboy- that was an AWESOME post. I particularly like the Hungarian analogy.

Oh, and here is a GREAT example of the Baltimore dialect. It clearly has Southern influences, and yes, this woman is a native of Maryland - I have met her on Route 40 and I have bought a gazing ball from her.

Start at 2:03 if you want to skip the first part which is somebody from somewhere else.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vn1Ff...ist=QL&index=1

Last edited by MDguy99; 02-28-2011 at 03:38 PM..
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Old 02-28-2011, 04:11 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
4,564 posts, read 7,632,343 times
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Transylvania is a great comparison, because much like Maryland, the area has a split heritage. Over time the Hungarian influence has waned and Romanian has increased (thanks in large part to the area being given to Romania after one of the World Wars.) None the less, the history of the region, its development pattern, its arcitecture is more Hungarian than Romanian. So even today, as Hungarians make up maybe 25% of the population, there existance and influence (past and present) is undeniable and very real.

I don't think that may posters don't realize how insulting it is to someone to say "no, you are wrong, your state is in the north now because me and my 48 suburban buddies deem it so" If you were to say something like that to a Hungarian about Transylvania, you would probably get cursed out at minimum. People take their identity and the identity of their home seriously.

Last edited by westsideboy; 02-28-2011 at 04:24 PM..
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Old 02-28-2011, 04:59 PM
 
Location: Edgemere, Maryland
501 posts, read 956,060 times
Reputation: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post

I don't think that may posters don't realize how insulting it is to someone to say "no, you are wrong, your state is in the north now because me and my 48 suburban buddies deem it so" If you were to say something like that to a Hungarian about Transylvania, you would probably get cursed out at minimum. People take their identity and the identity of their home seriously.
To be honest with you, as sappy as this sounds, it hurts my heart for someone else to tell me what me and "my homeland" are and define our identity. When they say blanket statements like "Maryland is in the north" it negates memories of my childhood, of my family (even today) and our traditions. It sometimes makes me feel, wow this many people see us as this and for all these years that has not been our identity and now it is supposed to be because things are changing around us due to these very people who are telling us what we are? I don't know- I'm sure somebody else who's lived here all their life can relate.
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