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Old 12-10-2014, 12:39 PM
 
Location: Oxford, CT
3,556 posts, read 2,331,226 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball freak View Post
You're the one contradicting yourself not me.
LOL

Did you not read the part where I said that it doesn't matter how you feel or how anyone feels about the southern or northerness of a state??

Are you really this willfully ignorant or are you just running out of options? Where did I say that Maryland is more southern than northern?

I don't have a problem with agreeing that Maryland is not as southern as it used to be, but that doesn't make it a "northern" state no matter how hard you try to make that point.

If you hate the fact that the state is of Southern background and Southern heritage then just call it Mid-Atlantic. If it upsets you that much!

I have not for an instance changed or flopped my position, go ahead and read all 151 pages, I've kept the same position consistently throughout. You will not be able to (officially) call Maryland part of the northeast until some official change has occurred (meaning ON PAPER).

I'll welcome Maryland when this occurs, til then... enjoy your pseudo south / mid-atlantic region
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Old 12-10-2014, 01:06 PM
 
Location: Greenville, NC
2,052 posts, read 4,855,059 times
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You mean I'm not just imagining this????
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Old 12-10-2014, 01:19 PM
 
Location: Greenville, NC
2,052 posts, read 4,855,059 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball freak View Post
The South as a whole region is not disappearing. Oh wait I forgot Richard Martin thinks Charlotte is more like Boston than Atlanta.
I never said that. I said that Charlotte is loosing it's Southerness just like Richmond, Norfolk and Raleigh are. I'm not the only person to notice. They're debating just how Southern Charlotte remains in this thread.

How southern is Charlotte?
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Old 12-10-2014, 01:24 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
4,566 posts, read 7,642,929 times
Reputation: 2790
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball freak View Post
Here's a response. Most of Maryland doesn't speak with a Southern dialect. The Midland dialect as you call it is found only in the lower Northeast, aka areas that are culturally, politically, for the most part, and notice I say for the most part because there are exceptions, demographically not like the South and more akin to the Northeast. There is no disputing Philadelphia as a Northeastern city. Baltimore is a mere 50 miles to the south of the Pennsylvania border. And that Midland dialect is distinct from a Southern dialect. And you shouldn't talk it as a compliment. Normally your responses aren't worth my time. Maryland from a modern standpoint has far more in common with lower Northeast states like Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and Delaware than with Virginia outside of NOVA and North Carolina.
Not as "I call it" but as Dr. Labov from U-Penn, your favorite source "calls it."

The second comment is unsubstantiated. PA is not "the lower North East" any more than it is "the top part of the Upper South." Neither term makes much sense. I will refer you to David Hackett Fischer's book Albion's Seed, where he traces the immigration and subsequent migration of the 4 original groups of American Settlers.

1. Yankees in the NE
2. Quakers and Germans in Greater PA (the Midland speech zone on the east coast)
3. Largely Anglicans from eastern England in the South
4 Scots-Irish and some Germans going through PA to the Appalachians.

Each of these regions is distinct linguistically, culturally, and have different settlement patterns and history. These distinct regional identities continue to the modern day, which is why we are still having these discussions in 2014.

Your argument is based on an unsubstantiated premise: That PA is part of the North East. Until you can prove this, comparing PA to MD does nothing to show Maryland has "North East" traits, only that it has "Midland" or "Mid-Atlantic" traits if you prefer the later term.

So, as I said, if you prefer a straight North/South cultural divide, you can say PA is part of the North. But if you are a student of history you know there is no one cultural region, past or present, that encompasses all the states that stayed in the Union during the Civil War. While the South was largely united by cultural and language in at least the coastal areas where the bulk of the population lived, the Union states were a melange of at least 3 different cultural regions on the East Coast + the Upper Midwest + the Lower Midwest + the West Coast. It was a real chore from Lincoln to get these disperate people to unify enough to fight a determined enemy. Add this to the recent immigrant populations who didn't know apple pie from Sauerkraut or Colcannon, and you will understand why there were draft riots in the "North" when Lincoln needed soldiers, while nearly every able bodied young Southern man fought for their cause.

Your arguments are not nearly as strong as you think they are. You betray that you really don't have much on the ground knowledge of Maryland or PA as states, both are much more than Philly and Baltimore.

So your homework assignment is to show how linguistics, culture, folkways, politics, demographics, etc show PA to be a North Eastern state. Until you prove that, your entire argument that MD is part of the North East fall apart, as it is based on the similarities between the Northern part of MD and the Southern part of PA. Good luck.

Last edited by westsideboy; 12-10-2014 at 02:27 PM..
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Old 12-10-2014, 01:27 PM
 
194 posts, read 165,514 times
Reputation: 109
Nobody has proven at all how Southern cities are losing their Southerness. Culturally, linguistically and demographically Southern cities aren't any less Southern then they were 15 years ago. All there are are opinions, not facts. No Southern cities have lost their Southerness to the degree of Baltimore or Washington, not even close. Those two cities today only have a few Southern characteristics left. In cities like Richmond and Charlotte and Hampton Roads, there is the economic boom of the New South, religion, linguistics, and demographics which are all as Southern as they ever were. Perhaps Northern transplants dilute the culture but not nearly enough to where one can say one day they won't be Southern anymore. The South is not dying. Only changing.
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Old 12-10-2014, 01:38 PM
 
194 posts, read 165,514 times
Reputation: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
Not as "I call it" but as Dr. Labov from U-Penn, your favorite source "calls it."

The second comment is unsubstantiated. PA is not "the lower North East" any more than it is "the top part of the Upper South." Neither term makes much sense. I will refer you to David Hackett Fischer's book Albion's Seed, where he traces the immigration and subsequent migration of the 4 original groups of American Settlers.

1. Yankees in the NE
2. Quakers and Germans in Greater PA (the Midland speech zone on the east coast)
3. Largely Anglicans from eastern England in the South
4 Scots-Irish and some Germans going through PA to the Appalachians.

Each of these regions is distinct linguistically, culturally, and have different settlement patterns and history. These distinct regional identities continue to the modern day, which is why we are still having these discussions in 2014.

Your argument is based on an unsubstantiated premise: That PA is part of the North East. Until you can prove this, comparing PA to MD does nothing to show Maryland has "North East" traits, only that it has "Midland" or "Mid-Atlantic" traits if you prefer the later term.

So, as I said, if you prefer a straight North/South cultural divide, you can say PA is part of the North. But if you are a student of history you know there is no one cultural region, past or present, that encompasses all the states that stayed in the Union during the Civil War. While the South was largely united by cultural and language in at least the coastal areas where the bulk of the population lived, the Union states were a melange of at least 3 different cultural regions on the East Coast + the Upper Midwest + the Lower Midwest + the West Coast. It was a real chore of Lincoln to get these desperate people to unify enough to fight a determined enemy. Add this to the recent immigrant populations who didn't know apple pie from Sauerkraut or Colcannon, and you will understand why there were draft riots in the "North" when Lincoln needed soldiers, while nearly every able bodied young Southern man fought for their cause.

Your arguments are not nearly as strong as you think they are. You betray that you really don't have much on the ground knowledge of Maryland or PA as states, both are much more than Philly and Baltimore.

So your homework assignment is to show how linguistics, culture, folkways, politics, demographics, etc show PA to be a North Eastern state. Until you prove that, your entire argument that MD is part of the North East fall apart, as it is based on the similarities between the Northern part of MD and the Southern part of PA. Good luck.
I owe you no assignments who do you think you are.The fact you think Pennsylvania is the top part of the Upper South shows you know next to nothing about regions. Pennsylvania has far more in common with the Northeast than the South. Philadelphia is a conclusively Northeastern city so how is most of Maryland. not Northeastern when for the most part most of the state is like Delaware, Pennsylvania and New Jerse. Pennsylvania is not Southern in any way shape or form. The Mid-Atlantic is a subregion of the Northeast just as the Lower Midwest is a part of the Midwest. Politically and culturally most of Maryland better resembles the Northeast than it does the South. Your assignment is to prove how Pennsylvania is at all like Virginia. West Virginia north of Clarksburg and Morgantown isn't the South. You also must prove how Philadelphia doesn't qualify as Northeastern. I'm not going to the end of the earth to convince you to agree with me. Pennsylvania the top of the Upper South that's a good one. Good luck proving that culturally, linguistically, or demographically and politically. Pennsylvania being part of the Northeast isn't substantiated? What planet are you living on. It has been part of the Northeast ever since it's existence. It's as substantiated as being Northeastern as Iowa and Illinois are Midwestern. So I'd say you're the one in denial. So once again I owe you no explanation. Maybe you've been on the west side too long. It's better on the east side.
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Old 12-10-2014, 02:05 PM
 
Location: Oxford, CT
3,556 posts, read 2,331,226 times
Reputation: 2903
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball freak View Post
Nobody has proven at all how Southern cities are losing their Southerness. Culturally, linguistically and demographically Southern cities aren't any less Southern then they were 15 years ago. All there are are opinions, not facts. No Southern cities have lost their Southerness to the degree of Baltimore or Washington, not even close. Those two cities today only have a few Southern characteristics left. In cities like Richmond and Charlotte and Hampton Roads, there is the economic boom of the New South, religion, linguistics, and demographics which are all as Southern as they ever were. Perhaps Northern transplants dilute the culture but not nearly enough to where one can say one day they won't be Southern anymore. The South is not dying. Only changing.
Changing indeed. Exactly what happened with MD just to a larger extent.

Enjoy your mid-atlantic pseudo region!
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Old 12-10-2014, 02:51 PM
 
194 posts, read 165,514 times
Reputation: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf39us View Post
Changing indeed. Exactly what happened with MD just to a larger extent.

Enjoy your mid-atlantic pseudo region!
It is not changing in the same way as Maryland and you know it. Demographics, accents and culture are still as Southern as ever pal. Enjoy speculating about a future that is never going to happen except in your imagination. All you are is talk until it happens and Virginia is not headed towards a change in regions. Neither is North Carolina. Lol shut up about my pseudo region at least it exists unlike your speculations. You have two gifts: mocking people and making empty claims. And you always need the last word. Grow up and get some friends.
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Old 12-10-2014, 03:03 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
4,566 posts, read 7,642,929 times
Reputation: 2790
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball freak View Post
I owe you no assignments who do you think you are.The fact you think Pennsylvania is the top part of the Upper South shows you know next to nothing about regions. Pennsylvania has far more in common with the Northeast than the South. Philadelphia is a conclusively Northeastern city so how is most of Maryland. not Northeastern when for the most part most of the state is like Delaware, Pennsylvania and New Jerse. Pennsylvania is not Southern in any way shape or form. The Mid-Atlantic is a subregion of the Northeast just as the Lower Midwest is a part of the Midwest. Politically and culturally most of Maryland better resembles the Northeast than it does the South. Your assignment is to prove how Pennsylvania is at all like Virginia. West Virginia north of Clarksburg and Morgantown isn't the South. You also must prove how Philadelphia doesn't qualify as Northeastern. I'm not going to the end of the earth to convince you to agree with me. Pennsylvania the top of the Upper South that's a good one. Good luck proving that culturally, linguistically, or demographically and politically. Pennsylvania being part of the Northeast isn't substantiated? What planet are you living on. It has been part of the Northeast ever since it's existence. It's as substantiated as being Northeastern as Iowa and Illinois are Midwestern. So I'd say you're the one in denial. So once again I owe you no explanation. Maybe you've been on the west side too long. It's better on the east side.
I am someone who knows more than you do about this topic and can debate it without the personal attacks, snipes, and repeated histrionic threats to stop posting because others dare to disagree.

You obviously missed the point when I called PA "the top of the Upper South," of course PA does not fit this definition any more than it is "the lower part of the North East." Both are hedges, moving the goal posts if you will. I am glad though you see the absurdity of taking a distinct cultural region, like PA, maybe THE most distinct East Coast state in terms of culture, linguistics, and heritage, past and present, and trying to force into another region to fit your argument.

Here is how Philly isn't a "north east" city, but rather a Midland port city.

- It has a Midland dialect that it shares with Baltimore. This dialect stretches nearly to DC, and will likely one day encompass it. By contrast, NYC and Boston have true Northern dialects. All of this is defined by Dr. Labov at UPenn, our common source.

- Going further Philly has a rhotic dialect, meaning speakers don't drop their final "r" on words like car, bar, etc. This is very rare for an East Coast port city. Look north at NYC and Boston, look south to Charleston and Norfolk, and you will see all these cities have dialects where the "r"s are dropped.

What two cities are the exception? You guessed it! Baltimore and Philly maintained an "r-full" dialect in spite of the dialectal pressure that came from trade with port cities in Britain, where the prestige dialects did not transition to non-rhotic until after the Revolution. The best theory on why Baltimore and PA preserved their "r"s was the presence of Germans.....A near diagnostic trait of the Midland region in early America.

- Philly is a row house city, like Baltimore. Everyone so far in these discussion, including you I am pretty sure, has accepted that Philly and Baltimore are more similar to each other than either is to any other city in terms of housing stock and architecture.

- Both Philly and Baltimore have Black populations above 40%. By contrast, your quintessential North East cities NYC, and Boston, stand at 25%.

Pretty much any way you look at it, Philly clades with Baltimore, not with cities to its North. If you won't (really can't) show that Philly is more like NYC than its neighbor to the south, you can't win this argument. All you have accomplished is showing that Baltimore is like Philly. That isn't enough evidence to show that either is a North Eastern city, and even further away from showing all of PA or MD to be North Eastern states.

I do have another question for you? How much time have you spent in PA? And how much of that was in Philly? PA is a very....um...different state. To try and pigeonhole it with either its Northern neighbors, or its Southern ones isn't accurate. So, no, PA isn't much like VA, nor is it much like New York. If anything, you head west to find cultures more similar. Again, the linguistic maps reflect this, as Midland speech is a narrow belt on the East Coast, stretching only from PA south of the northern tier counties to just South of D.C. Head west, and this dialect region expands dramatically to the point where most of the rest of country speaks the Midland dialect, hence why "American Standard English" is a Midland dialect. But, but, but on the East coast, only PA, and parts of MD, DE and NJ have Midland dialects; the Northern and Southern dialects have much greater geographic spreads.

You really need to read Albion's Seed. It would help you understand PA better. Until you understand that very odd state, you are going to continue to struggle with this issue.
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Old 12-10-2014, 03:12 PM
 
Location: Oxford, CT
3,556 posts, read 2,331,226 times
Reputation: 2903
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball freak View Post
It is not changing in the same way as Maryland and you know it. Demographics, accents and culture are still as Southern as ever pal. Enjoy speculating about a future that is never going to happen except in your imagination. All you are is talk until it happens and Virginia is not headed towards a change in regions. Neither is North Carolina. Lol shut up about my pseudo region at least it exists unlike your speculations. You have two gifts: mocking people and making empty claims. And you always need the last word. Grow up and get some friends.
The simple fact that you think that a region can just change over time due to any of those things is silly. I'm simply taking your logic and applying it elsewhere.

But of course, you'll only accept that it has and will only occur (conveniently at that) to the one state that you insist magically moved regions.

Regions don't move without legislation. End. of. Story.

The south will be the south always and the north (and northeast) will be the north always UNTIL there is legislation otherwise,

The north is already defined and the south is also defined.



Here's an encyclopedia (I know, I know... scary!)

the South (region, United States) | Encyclopedia Britannica

Quote:
As defined by the U.S. federal government, it includes Alabama, Arkansas, Delaware, the District of Columbia, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, Mississippi, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, Virginia, and West Virginia.

As DEFINED.

Above all the ultimate authority in which states belong to which region would be... idk, the United States Government. It is after all, the states of the United States.

Live with it, or petition to change it.
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