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Old 12-10-2014, 04:05 PM
 
56 posts, read 57,577 times
Reputation: 58

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Yes this region is the lower northeast/mid-atlantic. End of Discussion!
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Old 12-10-2014, 04:06 PM
 
194 posts, read 165,514 times
Reputation: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Martin View Post
You know how you can tell when a ******* is wrong? They start resorting to personal attacks and insults.

Time for this...
You know how to tell when a good ol Southern boy is wrong? When he starts making claims that aren't supported by linguistics, culture, or demographics. Consider yourself served.
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Old 12-10-2014, 04:10 PM
 
Location: Greenville, NC
2,052 posts, read 4,853,976 times
Reputation: 1119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball freak View Post
You know how to tell when a good ol Southern boy is wrong? When he starts making claims that aren't supported by linguistics, culture, or demographics. Consider yourself served.
And where am I from again?????????
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Old 12-10-2014, 04:11 PM
 
194 posts, read 165,514 times
Reputation: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Martin View Post
And where am I from again?????????
Not this planet that's for sure.
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Old 12-10-2014, 04:57 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
4,566 posts, read 7,640,867 times
Reputation: 2790
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Martin View Post
And where am I from again?????????
MARYLAND!!


Oh, smack!
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Old 12-10-2014, 05:25 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
4,566 posts, read 7,640,867 times
Reputation: 2790
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball freak View Post
Couldn't resist. I'm not backing down. I'm moving on. You haven't won a damn thing but go on and think you have. You're a coward saying that to me on the internet. You wouldn't have the balls to do it in person and we both know it. My knowledge is arrogance just as much as yours is. Direct message me if you really want to fight over this. I'll be waiting. Let's see who blinks first.
No, we will have our discussion right here. That way everyone who cares to watch can tune in.

I see you are making the same claim to me that you made to either Wolf or Ole' School, that somehow I wouldn't say "I don't agree with you Ballfreak, and here is why." if we were face to face. Let me assure you, what you see here is an accurate reflection of how I debate, argue, and handle confrontations. Work, home, internet, it matters not. So, if you would rather have this conversation in person, you are free to visit Cumberland. PM me and we can meet for lunch.

But if you still wish to debate the issue, the ball is in your court as I answered your questions about why I feel Philly is not a North Eastern city, but better defined with Baltimore as "Midland, Greater PA, Mid-Atlantic" whichever term you prefer.

You have the option of refuting the points I made, or take the burden of proof on yourself and show how Philly is more like NYC and Boston than it is like Baltimore using dialect, settlement patterns, demographics, or whatever else you choose.

I also do want to know how much you know about PA, or even MD for that matter. I have given you the main academic source of my knowledge, the linguistic work of Dr. Labov and his predecessors in the field, like Hans Kurath, Fischer's book about the settlement of the East Coast, as well as being a native Marylander who can see both PA and WV from my back window. I went to private school, which means I know natives from all three states. I have also lived in 3 other MD counties, including Baltimore County, just a few miles from the city line. I took multiple linguistic courses at the undergrad level, focusing on dialect. My senior seminar project for the Honors Program at WMC was on the linguistics of Maryland. The subject is also a hobby and passion of mine. My BA is in history.

Those are some of my bonafides. What are yours? If you prefer not to answer, you can address the topic above, but I think it would be fruitful to know how much background information and boots on the ground experience you have in these states we are discussing.
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Old 12-10-2014, 05:51 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
27,640 posts, read 24,871,872 times
Reputation: 11205
Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
But if you still wish to debate the issue, the ball is in your court as I answered your questions about why I feel Philly is not a North Eastern city, but better defined with Baltimore as "Midland, Greater PA, Mid-Atlantic" whichever term you prefer.
Where else would it be?

Quote:
Pennsylvania [SIZE=1]i[/SIZE]/ˌpɛnsɨlˈvnjə/ (Pennsylvania German: Pennsilfaani), officially the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, is a U.S. state that is located in the Northeastern and Mid-Atlantic regions of the United States, and the Great Lakes region.
Pennsylvania - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:
The partition of the geographic regions of the United States goes back to the colonial period of American history. By the 18th century, New England, the Middle Atlantic, and the South were agreed to be the major sections of the Atlantic seaboard. These colonial groupings were the forerunners of the regional combinations that later appeared in census publications.
https://www.census.gov/history/www/p...divisions.html
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Old 12-10-2014, 06:15 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
4,566 posts, read 7,640,867 times
Reputation: 2790
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
The assumption I am debating is that the "Mid-Atlantic" region is a subset of the North Eastern cultural region. This claim is not backed up by the linguistic evidence which groups Philly and Baltimore together. They are the only two major east coast ports which kept a rhotic dialect. PA also has a distinct settlement pattern, focusing on Quakers and Germans in colonial times, which again sets PA apart from its neighbors to both the north and the south.

Again, Albion's Seed is an academic source of information on what sets PA apart. I like Wikipedia, and was very active on that site years ago. I can tell you from experience that some of the hottest debates are about how to define regions. Most often, you get what you see on the PA page, a concession to nearly everyone in the debate by listing several regions.

I don't really disagree entirely, as most states are not easily put into one category. For instance Philly is part of the East Coast Megapolis. The Upper Tier counties do have a Northern dialect and have a different settlement history than the rest of the state. So that region could be called "North Eastern." So, if you or anyone else is content not assigning labels for entire states, but agrees we should define each region of a state on its own merits, I am there Until then, calling all of PA a "North Eastern State" isn't backed up by the evidence in my opinion.

As you probably know, I am not a big fan of calling Maryland "Mid-Atlantic" because for the term to have any meaning, it is really just "Greater Pennsylvania." If we must put PA into a region, that is it, one that contains most of the state + northern Maryland east of Sideling Hill, northern Delaware, and Southern NJ.
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Old 12-10-2014, 06:29 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
27,640 posts, read 24,871,872 times
Reputation: 11205
Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
The assumption I am debating is that the "Mid-Atlantic" region is a subset of the North Eastern cultural region.
Part of the Mid-Atlantic is in the Northeast. Part of it isn't. The Mid-Atlantic technically stretches from New York to Virginia.

Mid-Atlantic states - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I agree that you can't play semantic tricks and say "Ah ha! It's in the Mid Atlantic, New England and the Mid Atlantic equals the Northeast (so says the Census anyway), so ____ is now in the Northeast." The Mid-Atlantic can contain Northeastern and Southern states just as the Great Lakes Region can contain Northeastern and Midwestern states. That's the only logical conclusion one can reach from reading the definitions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
Until then, calling all of PA a "North Eastern State" isn't backed up by the evidence in my opinion.
I suppose that's true of a state in any region. Regions aren't quite like scientific laws where you can go out, conduct an experiment, and prove it. My "evidence" of Pennsylvania's northeasterness would be the multitude of sources that define it as such. There's also the fact that there's never any debate about its regional affiliation. But that may just be because Pennsylvanians simply don't care about this as much as Marylanders. You can put Philly in the same region as Santa Fe and Tuscaloosa and most Pennsylvanians wouldn't care (not even the ones on C-D). What difference would it make?
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Old 12-10-2014, 06:42 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
27,640 posts, read 24,871,872 times
Reputation: 11205
Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
Again, Albion's Seed is an academic source of information on what sets PA apart. I like Wikipedia, and was very active on that site years ago. I can tell you from experience that some of the hottest debates are about how to define regions. Most often, you get what you see on the PA page, a concession to nearly everyone in the debate by listing several regions.
I don't see how what's listed on the PA Wiki page qualifies as a "concession" or compromise. Pennsylvania touches one of the Great Lakes. It's technically considered a Great Lake state. That's indisputable. It's also part of the Mid-Atlantic and the Northeast. That's not contradictory. It's not like it requires any compromise to reach those conclusions.

I do agree that there is a lot of cultural variation in Pennsylvania. But that has nothing to do with where the state is geographically located. There's no unifying "Northeastern" culture or dialect anyway. Pennsylvania is a northeastern state based on geography and history.
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