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Old 12-10-2014, 06:22 PM
 
4,802 posts, read 3,809,527 times
Reputation: 2585

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Once again Ball freak has provided no actual refutation, just personal attacks.
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Old 12-10-2014, 06:36 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
4,915 posts, read 8,026,974 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I don't see how what's listed on the PA Wiki page qualifies as a "concession" or compromise. Pennsylvania touches one of the Great Lakes. It's technically considered a Great Lake state. That's indisputable. It's also part of the Mid-Atlantic and the Northeast. That's not contradictory. It's not like it requires any compromise to reach those conclusions.

I do agree that there is a lot of cultural variation in Pennsylvania. But that has nothing to do with where the state is geographically located. There's no unifying "Northeastern" culture or dialect anyway. Pennsylvania is a northeastern state based on geography and history.
It isn't a concession if you are willing to consider intra-state regionalism as the primary unit of identification. That would mean Maryland is an Appalachian state, a "Mid-Atlantic" state (or greater PA,) and a Southern State.

But..........this whole thread really exists because people don't want to do that. They want a one-size-fits all label that is then forced down the throats of everyone else. That is why if forced to describe the entire state, I go with "Border State." The term on its face is an admission of distinct regionalism.

I agree, there is no unifying "Northeastern" culture or dialect if you include PA. If you don't include PA you can make a solid case, since the areas north of the Upper Tier of PA are all part of the Northern dialect region, all have port cities with "r" droppers, have many residents that are descended from the original Yankee settlers of New England. Yes, old New York was once New Amsterdam, so there is still variation, but we can find enough commonalities to unify the region.

Once you move through those top counties of PA, you cross that dialect boundary into the Midlands, you cross the settlement boundary into Penn's Woods, a unique experiment even by colonial standards of variation and individuality, you cross into a place where the very people the Puritans of the North East hanged from trees (Quakers) settled in droves.

I will keep banging the drum here. Everyone in this discussion really needs to read Albion's Seed if you want to understand how the initial settlement of the East Coast formed the great cultural and dialect regions that exist today. PA was fundamentally different, and ended up as the culture and dialect that we see as most standard "American" today. The map of Midland speech shows the expansion of this cultural region as the country expanded. It is the reason why someone from Iowa is more likely to sound like someone from Harrisburg than they are going to speak like someone in Albany, NY or Jackson, MS.
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Old 12-10-2014, 06:48 PM
 
56 posts, read 60,593 times
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Maryland hasn't been part of the south since over a 100 years.
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Old 12-10-2014, 07:13 PM
 
194 posts, read 175,140 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool View Post
Once again Ball freak has provided no actual refutation, just personal attacks.
Once again I've beaten your theories into the ground you mean. You just can't admit when you're beaten.
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Old 12-10-2014, 08:09 PM
 
4,802 posts, read 3,809,527 times
Reputation: 2585
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Originally Posted by Ball freak View Post
Once again I've beaten your theories into the ground you mean. You just can't admit when you're beaten.
Really. Because there's a post or two you haven't replied to back a few pages. Have fun.
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Old 12-10-2014, 08:35 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,166 posts, read 26,106,911 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
It isn't a concession if you are willing to consider intra-state regionalism as the primary unit of identification. That would mean Maryland is an Appalachian state, a "Mid-Atlantic" state (or greater PA,) and a Southern State.
When you said "concession" in your earlier post, it seemed like you were suggesting there was some war going on where people were vying to place PA in one region over another. That's not the case. That is the case for Maryland, however, since you have a large contingency that does not want the state to be any part Southern. In this regard, Pennsylvania does not have the same identity crisis Maryland does. You are not going to see tons of articles in the Philadelphia Inquirer and the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, or threads spanning hundreds of pages in this forum, debating the "age old question" of what region Pennsylvania falls into.

Also, what do you mean by "Greater PA"? Is that supposed to be a part of Maryland?

Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
I agree, there is no unifying "Northeastern" culture or dialect if you include PA. If you don't include PA you can make a solid case, since the areas north of the Upper Tier of PA are all part of the Northern dialect region, all have port cities with "r" droppers, have many residents that are descended from the original Yankee settlers of New England. Yes, old New York was once New Amsterdam, so there is still variation, but we can find enough commonalities to unify the region.
I still don't think you can make much of a case whether we're talking about dialects or otherwise. You really have to stretch things to come up with some unifying Northeastern (or Midwestern for that matter) culture. I mean, if the Northern Cities Vowel shift is a determining factor, then Detroit and Milwaukee would be "northeastern," which doesn't make any sense at all.

Besides, you would have to go against pretty much every definition of the Northeastern U.S. to reach the conclusion that Pennsylvania isn't included in it. That would be like arguing that New York is not a part of the Northeast based on some criterion you believe trumps every textbook, article, publication that's ever existed saying the contrary.

At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter what region you put Philadelphia in. Philly has such a strong identity that people don't have to lean on "northeasterness" to feel better about themselves. If the Census Bureau and every other source put Philly in the South tomorrow, all that would mean is that the South would instantly become the best region of the country. Or at least that's how Philadelphians would think about it. Betsy Ross, the Liberty Bell, Benjamin Franklin, Noam Chomsky, Frank Rizzo, Will Smith, UPenn, the Quakers, water ice, hoagies, Rocky Balboa, boxing, music, the mafia, etc....all of that's not going to be wiped out by a label. That's why nobody in the Philadelphia forum fights over this non-sense. We don't need to develop an identity vicariously through other places.

Last edited by BajanYankee; 12-10-2014 at 08:45 PM..
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Old 12-10-2014, 10:18 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
4,915 posts, read 8,026,974 times
Reputation: 3191
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
When you said "concession" in your earlier post, it seemed like you were suggesting there was some war going on where people were vying to place PA in one region over another. That's not the case. That is the case for Maryland, however, since you have a large contingency that does not want the state to be any part Southern. In this regard, Pennsylvania does not have the same identity crisis Maryland does. You are not going to see tons of articles in the Philadelphia Inquirer and the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, or threads spanning hundreds of pages in this forum, debating the "age old question" of what region Pennsylvania falls into.

Also, what do you mean by "Greater PA"? Is that supposed to be a part of Maryland?



I still don't think you can make much of a case whether we're talking about dialects or otherwise. You really have to stretch things to come up with some unifying Northeastern (or Midwestern for that matter) culture. I mean, if the Northern Cities Vowel shift is a determining factor, then Detroit and Milwaukee would be "northeastern," which doesn't make any sense at all.

Besides, you would have to go against pretty much every definition of the Northeastern U.S. to reach the conclusion that Pennsylvania isn't included in it. That would be like arguing that New York is not a part of the Northeast based on some criterion you believe trumps every textbook, article, publication that's ever existed saying the contrary.

At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter what region you put Philadelphia in. Philly has such a strong identity that people don't have to lean on "northeasterness" to feel better about themselves. If the Census Bureau and every other source put Philly in the South tomorrow, all that would mean is that the South would instantly become the best region of the country. Or at least that's how Philadelphians would think about it. Betsy Ross, the Liberty Bell, Benjamin Franklin, Noam Chomsky, Frank Rizzo, Will Smith, UPenn, the Quakers, water ice, hoagies, Rocky Balboa, boxing, music, the mafia, etc....all of that's not going to be wiped out by a label. That's why nobody in the Philadelphia forum fights over this non-sense. We don't need to develop an identity vicariously through other places.
The wiki-wars weren't over just Maryland. It was pretty much every border state and their split identities. I never contributed to the PA page, but my guess if you look back at the archived discussion pages, there would have been a dispute at some time.

You make a great point about MD, we don't have a solid internal identity. We are a small state. I do think the northern MD east of Sideling Hill is "Greater PA." They eat all sorts of PA Dutchy things I had never heard of, the small agricultural cross road towns have identical architecture to the similar sized places in PA. They vote the same way, etc.

I use the term instead of "Mid-Atlantic" because there is no real natural traits that link states as far north as NY and as far south as NC. "Greater PA" is a natural region that can be defined by linguistic, cultural and historic traits.

As for determining regions by looking at defining characteristics, it isn't easy, but can be done. There are some obvious cultural difference, like ethnic white population, Italian presence, religion, history, economy, geography that separate the coastal North East from the Inland North, even if both regions are part of the same greater dialectal region. The same can be said for the South, and the Midlands, none are monoliths, and smaller cultural boundaries can be drawn. Boundaries can overlap too, for instance a person from the Smoky Mountains is likely to identify their home as both "the South" and "Appalachia." While my home is "Appalachia" but I would say we part of Northern Appalachia, a region we share with SE Ohio, SW PA, and Northern WV. I would also place my home firmly in the rust belt.

The stumbling block with putting PA in with states to its north is dialect, settlement patterns, history, and culture. Placing them together is not a natural grouping of shared cultural traits. It may make sense for meteorologists and geographers, but not when you look at culture. Again, East Coast urban culture overlaps all of these regions, so people from urban areas are likely to have some common live experiences that they share with other urbanites several states away, while they may have very little in common with rural areas just outside their metro boundaries. I don't doubt a Baltimorean, a Philly person, and a New Yorker share more in common in their day to day life then any do with someone from Cumberland, Altoona, or Binghamton.

Still, natural groupings do exist, and I think I explained pretty well why Philly clades with Baltimore more than cities to its north. This would not be if Philly, NYC, and Boston formed a natural group aside from the more generalize "urban east coast" culture.
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Old 12-11-2014, 05:48 AM
 
Location: Greenville, NC
2,078 posts, read 5,022,098 times
Reputation: 1160
Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool View Post
Really. Because there's a post or two you haven't replied to back a few pages. Have fun.
There's a whole lot of posts he hasn't replied to. Other than to hurl insults around.
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Old 12-11-2014, 05:57 AM
 
194 posts, read 175,140 times
Reputation: 113
The Northeast like any region is not a homogenous mixture. And the Mid-Atlantic...Pennsylvania, most of Maryland, Delaware and New Jersey share far more in common with the Northeast today than the South. The Northeast is not a homogenous mixture outside of Pennsylvania. Upstate New York and New York City are very different in speech patterns and history from New England. Upstate New York has the most in common with Pennsylvania. So let's just start taking as many states out of the Northeast as we can to prove Maryland isn't Northeastern. Maryland has speech patterns found only in the Northeast, politically and linguistically is more like the lower Northeast etc. if we are going to say Philadelphia is not the Northeast then we need to start saying Richmond and Charlotte are Northern cities. Westsideboy can't fathom that regions can have varieties of speech patterns, demographics, etc. The Midwest is like that. The South is like that. The West is like that. So why is the Northeast the exception. The Lower Midwest is as different from the Upper Midwest as New England is from the Mid Atlantic. Yet the two regions retain more similarities to each other than the Mid Atlantic and Lower Midwest do to the South. So why does it make zero sense to group them together. I don't get it and on here is certainly not where I will get my answer.
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Old 12-11-2014, 06:03 AM
 
194 posts, read 175,140 times
Reputation: 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool View Post
Really. Because there's a post or two you haven't replied to back a few pages. Have fun.
I didn't quote it but read through my posts and you'll see I addressed it.
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