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Old 12-11-2014, 01:08 PM
 
56 posts, read 57,617 times
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Maryland is definitely the Mid Atlantic as time goes on it's becoming more Northeastern as in traits. I always consider Virginia the gateway to the south.
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Old 12-11-2014, 01:15 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
27,646 posts, read 24,888,177 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
Like I say, if you define a region, including "Mid-Atlantic" to include no real diagnostic traits (meaning some cultural trait that all, or nearly all, the individuals in the region share.) the group isn't natural and tells us nothing about the states or people included. It is worthless terminology, and the definition becomes a tautology
Some of the most powerful truths are tautological.

At any rate, I'm not sure what law exists that says a region must have a unifying culture. The Northeast and the Midwest certainly do not have one. The Midwest is the Midwest because of its geography and history (largely the old Northwest Territory). New England and the Middle Colonies became the Northeast. Everything below became the American South and many of the upper South states were eventually forged out of existing southern states (Virginia and North Carolina). This is all laid out in the Census Regions history I posted.

So it's not a matter of folks going around and "constructing regions." These distinctions--in terms of the regions--have existed since the 19th Century.
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Old 12-11-2014, 01:43 PM
 
194 posts, read 165,647 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
It is all the same pie......the question is how to break it up. Among the most obvious would be a straight North/South divide based on slavery/Civil War allegiance. Using that definition, PA is the North, VA is the South, Maryland is obviously the border in between.

"Greater PA" is just my term for the Midland speech zone on the East Coast. The people speak the dialect because of the influence of PA. They eat faucnauts, or however you spell them, in places like Carroll County, MD. Never heard of the things in my life. Like I say, if you define a region, including "Mid-Atlantic" to include no real diagnostic traits (meaning some cultural trait that all, or nearly all, the individuals in the region share.) the group isn't natural and tells us nothing about the states or people included. It is worthless terminology, and the definition becomes a tautology:

The Mid-Atlantic region contains the states of NY, NJ, PA, MD, DE, VA, and NC, because these states are defined as being in the Mid-Atlantic region. We can do better.

And that to me is the rub, if folks want to construct regions that contains places that have nothing in common with each other, like a region that includes both NY and NC, they can, but that region than has no real meaning when used as a term to denote culture. Simply putting Sanford, NC and Scranton, PA in the "Mid-Atlantic" doesn't mean the people who live in these places have anything in common.

As for MD. We are what we are, and that is a small state squeezed between two pretty distinct and important cultural hearths, PA and VA. We can't really escape that. As I have said, I live in MD, but can see both PA and WV from my back window. It is inescapable that we are going to have an identity that is tied to these bigger fish. The downstaters can claim the Bay, Baltimore's urban culture, but really Maryland is defined by being in the middle......that is why they build the nation's capital on our land. We are the middle ground, the border state, whatever. We can hang our hats on good seafood, old bay, and some sports teams, but check out any cultural feature, dialect, cuisine, settlement patterns, economy, and is clear the MD portion of this region is almost always a small portion dominated by larger states. Only the Eastern Shore is large enough geographically to claim to be the center of its small world.
You are mocking me is all you are doing. The Midland speech pattern is found only in Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Delaware and Maryland, no Southern states. Pennsylvania and New Jersey are indisputably Northeastern only an idiot would say they aren't like BajanYankee has said. You just don't listen. You believe regions are homogenous mixtures when in fact they are not. Maryland is culturally and politically more like the Northeast than the South. Philadelphia has far more in common with New York from a modern standpoint than Richmond and since Baltimore is most like Philly the same stands to reason with them. If you can't stomach the fact that Maryland leans more Northeast than Southern that's not my fault nor is it my job to correct you. Unlike you I don't have 23 hours out of my day to have these arguments. I have a job and family to support something you probably don't. Maybe you should move out of your folks' basement and do something productive with your life. And believe me on here all you are is talk so don't challenge me to a verbal fistfight on here when you are too scared to do it in person. I owe you nothing. I've stated my opinion which does coincide with the facts. You simply take portions of the Northeast out of the equation to satisfy your's. If you don't like it that's not my problem. This was fun but we are done talking. To the ignore list you go.

Last edited by Ball freak; 12-11-2014 at 01:56 PM..
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Old 12-11-2014, 01:45 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
27,646 posts, read 24,888,177 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball freak View Post
Westsideboy can't fathom that regions can have varieties of speech patterns, demographics, etc. The Midwest is like that. The South is like that. The West is like that. So why is the Northeast the exception. The Lower Midwest is as different from the Upper Midwest as New England is from the Mid Atlantic.
I agree. So why can't Maryland be a variation of the South? Baltimore's Jewish Federation seems to think it's Southern.

Quote:
Baltimore's Jewish community evolved as a small, insular, but relatively wealthy minority community in a southern city, and its institutions today reflect this history.
What's the problem?
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Old 12-11-2014, 01:59 PM
 
Location: Oxford, CT
3,556 posts, read 2,333,036 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball freak View Post
Unlike you I don't have 23 hours out of my day to have these arguments. I have a job and family to support something you probably don't. Maybe you should move out of your folks' basement and do something productive with your life. And believe me on here all you are is talk so don't challenge me to a verbal fistfight on here when you are too scared to do it in person.
How many times are you going to say that you don't have "time" to deal with his or anyone else's arguments before you actually live up to your empty words.

Also, what is with this "tell it to my face" attitude of yours? What an immature way of discourse.

The fact that you seem to think that he or anyone else lives in their folk's basement simply because they disagree with you speaks loudly. This is all you have? Personal attacks and mocking?

It is quite clear who here needs to grow up.
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Old 12-11-2014, 02:08 PM
 
194 posts, read 165,647 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf39us View Post
How many times are you going to say that you don't have "time" to deal with his or anyone else's arguments before you actually live up to your empty words.

Also, what is with this "tell it to my face" attitude of yours? What an immature way of discourse.

The fact that you seem to think that he or anyone else lives in their folk's basement simply because they disagree with you speaks loudly. This is all you have? Personal attacks and mocking?

It is quite clear who here needs to grow up.
Mind your own business and take your own inventory you've got plenty of flaws. I've already beaten you so three sentences of my time is all you get. you're not my guidance counselor so buzz off.
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Old 12-11-2014, 03:41 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
4,566 posts, read 7,645,106 times
Reputation: 2790
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball freak View Post
You are mocking me is all you are doing. The Midland speech pattern is found only in Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Delaware and Maryland, no Southern states. Pennsylvania and New Jersey are indisputably Northeastern only an idiot would say they aren't like BajanYankee has said. You just don't listen. You believe regions are homogenous mixtures when in fact they are not. Maryland is culturally and politically more like the Northeast than the South. Philadelphia has far more in common with New York from a modern standpoint than Richmond and since Baltimore is most like Philly the same stands to reason with them. If you can't stomach the fact that Maryland leans more Northeast than Southern that's not my fault nor is it my job to correct you. Unlike you I don't have 23 hours out of my day to have these arguments. I have a job and family to support something you probably don't. Maybe you should move out of your folks' basement and do something productive with your life. And believe me on here all you are is talk so don't challenge me to a verbal fistfight on here when you are too scared to do it in person. I owe you nothing. I've stated my opinion which does coincide with the facts. You simply take portions of the Northeast out of the equation to satisfy your's. If you don't like it that's not my problem. This was fun but we are done talking. To the ignore list you go.
I think you are doing a bang-up job of reducing your own argument to mockery. Even Bajan, who probably agrees with you more than me about what constitutes regionalism isn't sitting by and letting you um.."respond" in this way without calling you out for making deficient arguments.

I do agree with you on one thing, you owe me nothing. But, if you want me to consider you a debating equal, reciprocity is expected. I answered your questions, you won't answer mine, and I know why. Puffery in debate seems to be your "go to move". Not good enough in my book. Just read how me and Bajan are posting to each other. We don't agree, but we can still be civil, still find common ground, still learn from each other's opinions, all while debating.

I am still not sure why you think I wouldn't have this discussion with you in person. This topic comes up a lot in many circles. I have debated it many times in person too. I offered to take you out to lunch (my treat) if you want to visit Cumberland and have this discussion in person. The offer stands, provided you aren't looking to punch me out.

Oh, I am married, have kids, and a decent job. I debate because I like too, even with folks like you. It keeps me sharp.
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Old 12-11-2014, 04:53 PM
 
Location: PG County, MD
582 posts, read 742,314 times
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Speaking of dialects, has anyone else noticed the typical Virginia vowel raising (/aʊt/ > /ćut,eut/) in PA? I've noticed it among natives in very rural areas of south-central PA.
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Old 12-11-2014, 05:53 PM
 
194 posts, read 165,647 times
Reputation: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I agree. So why can't Maryland be a variation of the South? Baltimore's Jewish Federation seems to think it's Southern.



What's the problem?
Because Maryland's culture, speech patterns, and politics are not Southern. They are too different to be considered Southern.
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Old 12-11-2014, 06:03 PM
 
4,801 posts, read 3,467,493 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball freak View Post
The Northeast like any region is not a homogenous mixture. And the Mid-Atlantic...Pennsylvania, most of Maryland, Delaware and New Jersey share far more in common with the Northeast today than the South. The Northeast is not a homogenous mixture outside of Pennsylvania. Upstate New York and New York City are very different in speech patterns and history from New England. Upstate New York has the most in common with Pennsylvania. So let's just start taking as many states out of the Northeast as we can to prove Maryland isn't Northeastern. Maryland has speech patterns found only in the Northeast, politically and linguistically is more like the lower Northeast etc. if we are going to say Philadelphia is not the Northeast then we need to start saying Richmond and Charlotte are Northern cities. Westsideboy can't fathom that regions can have varieties of speech patterns, demographics, etc. The Midwest is like that. The South is like that. The West is like that. So why is the Northeast the exception. The Lower Midwest is as different from the Upper Midwest as New England is from the Mid Atlantic. Yet the two regions retain more similarities to each other than the Mid Atlantic and Lower Midwest do to the South. So why does it make zero sense to group them together. I don't get it and on here is certainly not where I will get my answer.
This double standard of yours is very interesting. First you say that MD is like the Northeast BECAUSE of culture, but now you concede that the Northeast isn't uniform in culture. So you practically refuted your reasoning for MD being Northeastern based on culture.
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