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Old 12-12-2014, 09:27 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
27,623 posts, read 24,832,767 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
That is all I am really doing with PA, looking a bit past where a governmental agency or popular nomenclature draws the line and seeing if it makes sense when you examine other cultural artifacts. I focus on Linguistics because I know it pretty well, and the history of American culture follows dialect pretty consistently.
I understand that. My point was that--irrespective of dialect differences and settlement patterns--Pennsylvania is in the Northeast. Your assertion is that Pennsylvania should not be grouped with states to its north for several reasons, and I largely agree with you on that, but that's an entirely different issue from what the state actually is geographically and historically.
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Old 12-12-2014, 09:36 AM
 
Location: Oxford, CT
3,556 posts, read 2,327,033 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I understand that. My point was that--irrespective of dialect differences and settlement patterns--Pennsylvania is in the Northeast. Your assertion is that Pennsylvania should not be grouped with states to its north for several reasons, and I largely agree with you on that, but that's an entirely different issue from what the state actually is geographically and historically.
I agree. PA is historically and geographically northeastern. I think using PA's language and dialect to prove Maryland is northeastern falls flat because PA shouldn't be grouped with states north of it.

PA is far too large to categorize and has far too many dialects and accents to be used as a good argument. Hell you can get from Baltimore to the border of PA in about 35 minutes... It's like taking the south side of MD and north side of VA and saying "See! It's like MD so it's northeastern!"

I don't believe Westside is trying to establish PA as not northeastern, just that using the dialects of PA to prove a state south of it is northeastern is a bad argument.
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Old 12-12-2014, 10:14 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
27,623 posts, read 24,832,767 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf39us View Post


Hahaha

Carbon copy of the massive state of PA huh? Now I know this guy is off his rocker!
Pennsylvania is not very similar to New York State. The northernmost reaches are, but the state as a whole, imo, is most similar to Ohio. But again, this has nothing to do with whether it's Northeastern or not since the Northeast (and the Midwest) is a conglomeration of many different peoples, dialects and cultures.

You had a brief Swedish and Dutch influence in much of the Delaware Valley, but the DVR, and more specifically Philadelphia, came to be established by Quakers. UPenn's mascot is even the "Quakers." The Pennsylvania back country, in contrast, was settled by Germans and Scots-Irish (many of whom migrated south into Maryland, Virginia, the Carolinas and Georgia). There was also Yankee settlement in the parts of the state that border New York.

Pennsylvania, outside of Philadelphia, Pittsburgh and the Lehigh Valley, is often referred to as a "hick" state. Many counties in PA vote overwhelmingly Republican to a degree that's not even close to being seen in Western New York or the Upper Midwest. It's also notable for being pro-life and anti-gun control.
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Old 12-12-2014, 10:52 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
27,623 posts, read 24,832,767 times
Reputation: 11185
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf39us View Post
I don't believe Westside is trying to establish PA as not northeastern, just that using the dialects of PA to prove a state south of it is northeastern is a bad argument.
I don't think that's where he and I differ. I think he's more into the idea of a region having common traits and culture whereas I think the Northeast and Midwest are simply far too heterogeneous for that to be the case. You can't even really put New York City and Boston together since the former has a Dutch heritage and the latter a Yankee/Purtian heritage. The Yankee settlement and influence in New York was largely in the Upstate.

This is probably one reason why there are so many people in the New York forum who claim that Westchester and the Upper Hudson Valley (and perhaps the North Shore of LI) are a cultural extension of New England while the rest of the Boroughs are Mid Atlantic.
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Old 12-12-2014, 12:29 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball freak View Post
or to say the Mid Atlantic is a split down the middle between Northeastern and Southern.
It is split down the middle between Northern and Southern.

http://www.antiquemapsandprints.com/SCANSB/b-1809.jpg

Mid-Atlantic states - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The interesting thing about the first map (dated 1809) is that it says "Map of the Middle States and Maryland, Virginia and West Virginia" (my emphasis). That's sort of an interesting distinction that endured, in some sources, until the late 19th Century. There used to be an "Association of the Colleges and Secondary of the Middle States and Maryland" up until the 20th Century.
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Old 12-12-2014, 12:30 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
4,564 posts, read 7,630,675 times
Reputation: 2790
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I don't think that's where he and I differ. I think he's more into the idea of a region having common traits and culture whereas I think the Northeast and Midwest are simply far too heterogeneous for that to be the case. You can't even really put New York City and Boston together since the former has a Dutch heritage and the latter a Yankee/Purtian heritage. The Yankee settlement and influence in New York was largely in the Upstate.

This is probably one reason why there are so many people in the New York forum who claim that Westchester and the Upper Hudson Valley (and perhaps the North Shore of LI) are a cultural extension of New England while the rest of the Boroughs are Mid Atlantic.
That's right. I understand your point too though. At some point dissimilar places are placed together for convenience's sake. And culture is just one useful way to form regions. For instance having a Mid-Atlantic region in meteorology makes sense. The east coast cities from D.C. to NYC often have the same weather patterns and are hit by the same storms. Likewise, even Appalachia from Maine to Alabama isn't a tight cultural region, but as a geographic region, there is utility in seeing a whole, not just parts.

Lastly, I think Wolf, you, and myself have the same general feeling. That if the "North East" state MD is most similar to is PA.....and PA itself isn't a great fit for the North East, it is an even bigger stretch to make sand pounding arguments that MD is a unequivocal North Eastern State. The shoe just doesn't fit that well. It makes more sense if one MUST place Maryland in a region to go with a "Mid-Atlantic, Greater PA, Midlands" definition. But really, border state is best description of our culture, since we have always been, and still are, a small state bordered by the very influential American hearth states in PA and VA.
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Old 12-12-2014, 12:34 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
4,564 posts, read 7,630,675 times
Reputation: 2790
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
It is split down the middle between Northern and Southern.

http://www.antiquemapsandprints.com/SCANSB/b-1809.jpg

Mid-Atlantic states - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The interesting thing about the first map (dated 1809) is that it says "Map of the Middle States and Maryland, Virginia and West Virginia" (my emphasis). That's sort of an interesting distinction that endured, in some sources, until the late 19th Century. There used to be an "Association of the Colleges and Secondary of the Middle States and Maryland" up until the 20th Century.
Hmmm....an 1809 map shouldn't show West Virginia. The state wasn't separated from VA until the Civil War. The map has to be misdated.
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Old 12-12-2014, 12:39 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
27,623 posts, read 24,832,767 times
Reputation: 11185
Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
Lastly, I think Wolf, you, and myself have the same general feeling. That if the "North East" state MD is most similar to is PA.....and PA itself isn't a great fit for the North East, it is an even bigger stretch to make sand pounding arguments that MD is a unequivocal North Eastern State. The shoe just doesn't fit that well. It makes more sense if one MUST place Maryland in a region to go with a "Mid-Atlantic, Greater PA, Midlands" definition. But really, border state is best description of our culture, since we have always been, and still are, a small state bordered by the very influential American hearth states in PA and VA.
I agree. It's not like placing a certain label on it makes it "like New York" anyway. They are two different places.
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Old 12-12-2014, 12:40 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
27,623 posts, read 24,832,767 times
Reputation: 11185
Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
Hmmm....an 1809 map shouldn't show West Virginia. The state wasn't separated from VA until the Civil War. The map has to be misdated.
Good catch. I didn't even think about that.
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Old 12-13-2014, 12:34 PM
 
194 posts, read 165,274 times
Reputation: 109
Since I can't see any posts made after mine, all of you just wasted your time.
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