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Old 02-28-2011, 07:09 PM
 
1,009 posts, read 1,849,313 times
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Very well said. I've been saying that "big city" and "south" are oxymorons. Large cities in the South are anomalous and most are recent phenomena. Even Baltimore and Washington DC which are part of Megalopolis are much newer cities compared to Philadelphia, New York, and Boston. The settlements of those cities are 100 years older than Baltimore and 170 years older than Washington DC. So much of the population base we attribute to Maryland comes from suburban DC expansion. By the time Washington DC began to seriously sprawl into Maryland, Philadelphia, New York, and Boston were twice as old as Washington DC. Those cities are still about 80-something percent older than DC and more than 50 percent older than Baltimore.

When you go outside of metropolitan New York, Philadelphia, Boston, Pittsburgh, Detroit, Cleveland, Chicago or wherever, you are in a landscape dominated by middle-class family farms created by European immigrants. When you go outside of Baltimore, Washington, Atlanta, New Orleans or wherever, you are in distinctly in the Plantation South and the ethnic substrate is African American. This is what is bewildering about not considering Maryland the south. Little has changed in the rural areas and it is still decidedly southern.

All of the large metropolitan areas of the South (even including Florida and Texas) all have massive transplant populations. It is a very rare appearance to meet someone in a southern city whose family has had a presence there since before WWII. Northern cities are just inherently older and much of the population still traces its origins to the 19th and early 20th century immigration before the National Origins Act for the most part eliminated it in 1924. And good call on the hip-hop music scene. The Organized Noize/Dungeon Family movement of Atlanta, Rap-A-Lot of Houston, Slip-N-Slide of Miami, No Limit and Cash Money of New Orleans, and Three Six Mafia and Eightball & MJG are all distinctly "southern" and not a derivative of New York hip-hop. And they are certainly not "West Coast". Neither Baltimore or DC have a nationally reknowned hip-hop scene (very un-Northern for cities of their size) but Baltimore Jazz and Washington DC go-go both trace their origins to Southern Gospel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hitek View Post
I couldn't agree more. The same things that some of these posters present and try to claim to make Maryland northern the same things and claims can go to North Carolina, Virginia and other places in the south. Lets see South Florida is very diverse, the Triangle Area, Asheville, and Charlotte NC along with Northern Virginia and Atlanta, GA are very educated, full of high income, rich residents, voted democrat and are just as liberal as some posters claim that Maryland is. Yet, they are still in the south. Also, Baltimore is a city that I wouldn't call very educated with its high crime and impoverished locals. Maryland just isn't a northern state that just doesn't fit in with New York, New England, New Jersey, etc. All one needs to do really is to watch a episode of the old movie ROOTS to confirm this lol. Note you do not live in a northern state or city if:
1. The city does not have a Puerto Rican day parade unlike Northern Cities as New Haven, Hartford, New York, Philadelphia, and Boston.
2. A KKK base like Annapolis and some other places in Maryland
3. Caprice Classics, Crown Victorias, Licoln Towncars, Dodge Magnums, Grand Marquis, and Pontiac Bonnevilles with large rims are the it cars for urban blacks instead of Sabbs, Hondas, Acura Legends, Acura Vigors, Volvos and BMWs.
4.Below mason dixon line
5.Has southern accents
6.Has Waffle Houses and Swamps
7. Has an extensive slave history along with Jim Crow laws ,segregation, and tobacco history.
8.No bodegas anywhere
9. Gucci Mane, Plies, Waka Flocka, and southern rap is heavily listened to instead of Fabolous, D. Block, Red Cafe,and Cassidy and east coast rappers to name a few.
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Old 03-01-2011, 04:45 AM
 
Location: Greenville, NC
2,051 posts, read 4,844,846 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MDguy99 View Post
I'll have to disagree with you there. While they are certainly like slot machines that always land on JACKPOT for the state, I don't think they are "trackers". I mean, how is that possible? They can show a car pass, but how the hell would one camera in a stationary position "track" that person to their destination to see where they are going? lol I guess you could argue that they are aiming for one on every corner, so therefore they would be able to track your progress as you pass each one, but even that is a bit far-fetched. With the disgustingly high population density of Central Maryland, I am pretty sure they would never have the resources to devote to tracking people's every move- I think that's based in a bit of irrational paranoia, but hell, I've been proven wrong before, so who knows!
You'd actually be surprised at how many cameras they are hooked up to. Particularly in cities. The police and other authorities have been actively requesting and receiving permission to use private business cameras as part of their network. If your town or city has or had public access wireless internet then it's super easy for them to impliment such a system. In fact, they have already admitted to doing it in a number of cities and who knows how many they don't admit to. Maryland is huge into taking away the rights of the public and increasing police powers.
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Old 03-01-2011, 05:47 AM
 
Location: Macao
15,697 posts, read 34,693,659 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steelers10 View Post
When you go outside of metropolitan New York, Philadelphia, Boston, Pittsburgh, Detroit, Cleveland, Chicago or wherever, you are in a landscape dominated by middle-class family farms created by European immigrants. When you go outside of Baltimore, Washington, Atlanta, New Orleans or wherever, you are in distinctly in the Plantation South and the ethnic substrate is African American. This is what is bewildering about not considering Maryland the south.
Actually thats probably the strongest argument for 'Maryland is Southern' that I've read.

Except it doesn't apply to Northern Virginia.

But its a good point in itself.
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Old 03-01-2011, 08:30 PM
 
1,009 posts, read 1,849,313 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Beer View Post
Actually thats probably the strongest argument for 'Maryland is Southern' that I've read.

Except it doesn't apply to Northern Virginia.

But its a good point in itself.
Northern Virginia is an anomaly because of the Germanna Colonies. South of what we now consider Northern Virginia (below in blue on the map) had German workers brought in to mine and to labor in ironworks. Although they lacked the sociopolitical power of the Quakers, South Central Pennsylvania,Western Maryland, Western Loudoun County, and the Virginia areas below in Yellow and Orange weren't overwhelmingly complicit in supporting the slave labor system and plantations. This was compounded by the soils in these areas not being particularly suitable for tobacco (or most other large scale plantation operations).

Even after many of the Germans moved westward and the landed gentry tried to use slave labor in the ironworks, it was never a viable substitute for the much larger German labor force. It's kind of like what happens to cities like Baltimore when "white flight" occurs. No matter how many blacks move in or stay, they just don't have enough population numbers to replace the white population to keep running the same system at the same level. So prior to DC suburbanization, Fairfax and Loudoun Counties were still relatively poor and underdeveloped as late as the early 1960s. But the purple, dark blue, gray, and light green areas supported plantations and still have sizeable black rural populations although much of the slave population was sold to the deeper south in the first few decades of the 19th century after the tobacco economy had collapsed and cotton became king.

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Old 03-01-2011, 09:26 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
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Yet another cool map, where did you get it from? What are the numbered areas meant to represent?
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Old 03-01-2011, 11:02 PM
 
Location: Macao
15,697 posts, read 34,693,659 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steelers10 View Post
Northern Virginia is an anomaly because of the Germanna Colonies. South of what we now consider Northern Virginia (below in blue on the map) had German workers brought in to mine and to labor in ironworks. Although they lacked the sociopolitical power of the Quakers, South Central Pennsylvania,Western Maryland, Western Loudoun County, and the Virginia areas below in Yellow and Orange weren't overwhelmingly complicit in supporting the slave labor system and plantations. This was compounded by the soils in these areas not being particularly suitable for tobacco (or most other large scale plantation operations).

Even after many of the Germans moved westward and the landed gentry tried to use slave labor in the ironworks, it was never a viable substitute for the much larger German labor force. It's kind of like what happens to cities like Baltimore when "white flight" occurs. No matter how many blacks move in or stay, they just don't have enough population numbers to replace the white population to keep running the same system at the same level. So prior to DC suburbanization, Fairfax and Loudoun Counties were still relatively poor and underdeveloped as late as the early 1960s. But the purple, dark blue, gray, and light green areas supported plantations and still have sizeable black rural populations although much of the slave population was sold to the deeper south in the first few decades of the 19th century after the tobacco economy had collapsed and cotton became king.
Makes sense for Virginia. I'll change gears back to Maryland though.

I did hear about large German populations, which certainly made cities like Frederick and Hagerstown make it what it is.

So, did Maryland have a large plantation culture back in its time? I should research it, but I just always assumed they did not.

For whatever reason, I just always had the impression that blacks migrated to DC just like they did to Detroit, Chicago, etc., for jobs. I always assumed that DC was mostly european immigrant like most of the other northern cities were back in its day. Although, come to think of it, I have seldom ever heard of large european immigrants and DC ever being mentioned together like with all of the northern cities.
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Old 03-01-2011, 11:56 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
4,561 posts, read 7,621,816 times
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http://www.census.gov/population/www...0056/tab35.pdf

Here are some interesting numbers. In 1860 Maryland was 75% white and 24% black. In 2009 the numbers were 63% and 30%. Interestingly after the Civil War the white population skyrockets while the black population stagnants. These are probably big immigrant waves that came into cities like Baltimore. The white growth rate stagnants about 1970. The black growth rate doesn't start to grow again until 1950 and then goes rapidly up from there.

It is strange that nearly 150 years after the Civil the ratio of whites to blacks is pretty much the same, even though that would not have the case in 1910. Where where the black people from 1940-1970 moving from? The South? North Eastern cities? I wish I knew the answer.
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Old 03-02-2011, 08:11 AM
 
Location: Edgemere, Maryland
501 posts, read 955,347 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Beer View Post

So, did Maryland have a large plantation culture back in its time? I should research it, but I just always assumed they did not.
YES. Very much so- especially in the Tidewater regions of Southern Maryland and the Lower Eastern shore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Beer View Post
For whatever reason, I just always had the impression that blacks migrated to DC just like they did to Detroit, Chicago, etc., for jobs. I always assumed that DC was mostly european immigrant like most of the other northern cities were back in its day. Although, come to think of it, I have seldom ever heard of large european immigrants and DC ever being mentioned together like with all of the northern cities.
Not true at all about DC. The DC area was crawling with slaves- especially in Prince Georges County. I was recently at the Smithsonian at the Museum of Natural History and they have a good display on history with a map of the southern states and dots where there were large concentrations of saves and freed blacks. I was surprised, as was my friend from PA who came with me, at the AMOUNT of dots in that central Maryland, Northern Virginia DC metro area. Most of the black population was really NOT from the Deep South. It was nothing like Detroit or Chicago.
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Old 03-02-2011, 08:16 AM
 
Location: Edgemere, Maryland
501 posts, read 955,347 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post

It is strange that nearly 150 years after the Civil the ratio of whites to blacks is pretty much the same, even though that would not have the case in 1910. Where where the black people from 1940-1970 moving from? The South? North Eastern cities? I wish I knew the answer.
Well, at that time Prince Georges County was just beginning to build as a viable DC suburb - I would assume that attracted African Americans from other parts of the country for jobs since it was already a predominantly African-American county for some time. Just a guess. I would think they came equally from the North and South. Probably not majority from the Northeast. I think that a second "Reverse Great Migration" (except one for all races this time) is happening now based on the latest Census data. Maryland is falling more in line with the South as far as present population patterns. We are gaining and growing along with VA, NC and GA in contrast to PA, NJ, and NY.
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Old 03-02-2011, 09:42 AM
 
Location: North Beach, MD on the Chesapeake
32,112 posts, read 39,184,670 times
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PG did not become majority African American until the 199os. Even then it was a slow process. The trend started in the late 50s and 60s with urban renewal in DC and the construction of the apartment complexes inside what is now the Beltway.

There were totally black areas historically (Glenarden being one). The school system changed in 90s, also. While there were predominately Black schools (Potomac, Fairmount Heights) in the 80s many schools (Bowie, Laurel, Douglass and to an extent Gwynn Park) were overwhelmingly White into the late 90s early 2000s.
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