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Old 03-05-2011, 07:44 PM
 
Location: Edgemere, Maryland
501 posts, read 956,060 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Beer View Post
I think WV is to cemented in image because it shares the Virginia name, plus it is associated with Kentucky in a negative 'poor white people' way. Plus, there are some strong West Virginian accents there. (By the way, I quite like WV, just as an aside).

Just thinking of another factor that people place Maryland as northern. In our textbooks, we're taught that DC was placed in DC, because it was a type of imbetween place between north and south. The literal thinker would just as quickly define Maryland as the northern one, and Virigina as the southern one, when taught of that idea through public education.

----------------

Regarding the Eastern Shore. Looking at a map, I was just thinking, it is rather unfortunate about Delaware, Eastern Shore Maryland, and that peninsular part of Virginia extending down towards Virginia Beach that that entire area didn't just become it's own state together. Appears to have many of the same characteristics, and would probably have more interest/attraction in the imagination if it were all together. Maybe that's just my own thinking though...
Well, DC is only in the middle of MD. In fact, there are more places in WV north of DC than in Maryland. And there are some damn near thick accents in MD! Especially in Smith Island!

I agree with your second point. In all honesty, Southern Maryland and the coastal Western Shore up to and including south and eastern Baltimore/ Baltimore County could have been Virginia's, West Virginia could have taken Western Maryland... North, northeast , and immediate northwest of Baltimore up to and including Frederick County... could have been PA easily.
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Old 03-05-2011, 08:53 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
4,564 posts, read 7,630,675 times
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The South is the nation, by textbook defition, the people. They are have who we have been talking about for 22 pages now. The Confederacy is their government between 1860-1865. The people of the South developed a sense of Nationalism between 1780-1860 that united them against the states to their north.

This is no different than what happened to many successful revolutions in Europe. Nationalism was big at this time. Communication was uniting people with similarities points of view from different parts of the world. Before railroads and a middle class based on the backbone of industrialization (or sale of one particular product to an industrial process, like cotton in the south.)people in rural areas just laungished in provencialism. Things changed, it was called nationalism. It happened in the US, too.

The only difference is that the South, the people, lost their bid for indepedence. The Confederacy as a government was short lived, but only further created the cultural connection shared by the people. Those figures are Robert E. Lee, who as admit, could have just as easy have been the Union general. But he wasn't. He chose to fight for the Confederacy as a loyal Southern down to the end. That is the legend of the Confederate effort, the lost cause.

Maybe it fades, as all things do, in the 21st century, but it isn't gone yet. There are plenty of normal, open-minded Southern people that subscribe to the images of the Confederacy. This is a legacy of the government, and it is not gone yet.
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Old 03-05-2011, 11:26 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia
1,300 posts, read 2,645,523 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steelers10 View Post
, a Chambersburger identifying themselves as a Pennsylvanian, and a Martinsburger identifying as a West Virginian says absolutely nothing about cultural differences between the three states separated by 65 miles (or an hours drive).
Except that it was a Confederate West Virginia General, John McCausland of Mason County, and mostly West Virginia troops (including my g-g-g-grandfather) that burned down Chambersburg in 1864. They started from Martinsburg.
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Old 03-06-2011, 10:40 AM
 
1,009 posts, read 1,850,856 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
The South is the nation, by textbook defition, the people. They are have who we have been talking about for 22 pages now. The Confederacy is their government between 1860-1865. The people of the South developed a sense of Nationalism between 1780-1860 that united them against the states to their north.

This is no different than what happened to many successful revolutions in Europe. Nationalism was big at this time. Communication was uniting people with similarities points of view from different parts of the world. Before railroads and a middle class based on the backbone of industrialization (or sale of one particular product to an industrial process, like cotton in the south.)people in rural areas just laungished in provencialism. Things changed, it was called nationalism. It happened in the US, too.

The only difference is that the South, the people, lost their bid for indepedence. The Confederacy as a government was short lived, but only further created the cultural connection shared by the people. Those figures are Robert E. Lee, who as admit, could have just as easy have been the Union general. But he wasn't. He chose to fight for the Confederacy as a loyal Southern down to the end. That is the legend of the Confederate effort, the lost cause.

Maybe it fades, as all things do, in the 21st century, but it isn't gone yet. There are plenty of normal, open-minded Southern people that subscribe to the images of the Confederacy. This is a legacy of the government, and it is not gone yet.
Yes correct, for 22 pages we have been talking about the cultural features that identify Maryland as "Southern" or not. There has been discussions of music, sports, food, accents, religion, cars and any other tangible features of culture you can identify. I applaud your keen understanding of the processes of state formation and national identity. However, all I am looking for are tangible examples of "Confederate" culture. I don't think there are any and I still don't think the fact that Maryland was not a "Confederate" state does not preclude it from being Southern.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobilee View Post
Except that it was a Confederate West Virginia General, John McCausland of Mason County, and mostly West Virginia troops (including my g-g-g-grandfather) that burned down Chambersburg in 1864. They started from Martinsburg.
"Starting" from Martinsburg is completely irrelevant in this context. McCausland was under the Command of Gen. Jubal Early who preportedly wanted Chambersburg burned in retaliation for the homes of well-heeled southern sympathizers being burned in Jefferson County, WV, the Confederate Army of Northern Virginia's little source of support in an otherwise Unionist area. But starting at Martinsburg was the only logical point (this is the present route of U.S. Route 11 and I-81) if attempting to move a garrison up to Pennsylvania.

And the burning of Chambersburg is antecedent. Early was in the mode of exacting $200,000 tributes out of Maryland cities such as Frederick and Hagerstown. McCausland was the IDIOT who read the ransom note incorrectly to Hagerstown and only got $20,000 instead of $200,000. As a result, Early was forced to demand $500,000 from Chambersburg, who of course could not come up with that sum and was summarily burned. Perhaps if McCausland was a little more effective at his job Early would not have had to thin out already overtaxed Confederate forces. While Early still had effective strategies his starving troops were almost completely wiped out at Waynesboro a few months later by Sheridan's forces. Ultimately, Early would have been better off not going through Unionist territory in WV, MD, and PA in the first place.
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Old 03-06-2011, 12:26 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
4,564 posts, read 7,630,675 times
Reputation: 2790
Steelers10

Confederate culture is that flag you hate, the cult worship of General Robert E. Lee, the myth of the lost cause. I wish I could give you more, but the "nation-state" of the South existed very briefly before being crushed and really was defined only by the War between the State's itself. None of that sprang out of "Southern" culture until the "Nation-State" of the Confederacy was born.

I have never argued parts of Maryland should not be included with the South because they didn't join the Southern "nation-state." Large groups of Hungarians live outside the "nation-state" of Hungary, for example. Political boundaries and cultural boundaries don't always match up, we have been talking about that for 22 pages now too. My point was that alot of other Southerns will exclude us from the club by default because we didn't secede to form the Confederacy, so I guess that is Confedate legacy too.
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Old 03-06-2011, 08:00 PM
 
1,009 posts, read 1,850,856 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
Steelers10

Confederate culture is that flag you hate, the cult worship of General Robert E. Lee, the myth of the lost cause. I wish I could give you more, but the "nation-state" of the South existed very briefly before being crushed and really was defined only by the War between the State's itself. None of that sprang out of "Southern" culture until the "Nation-State" of the Confederacy was born.

I have never argued parts of Maryland should not be included with the South because they didn't join the Southern "nation-state." Large groups of Hungarians live outside the "nation-state" of Hungary, for example. Political boundaries and cultural boundaries don't always match up, we have been talking about that for 22 pages now too. My point was that alot of other Southerns will exclude us from the club by default because we didn't secede to form the Confederacy, so I guess that is Confedate legacy too.
Well, we can stop right there. Who ever said I hated the flag? That is often a retort I have heard when engaging in a discussion with someone wearing the flag and how little they know about the Civil War Era and Confederate history. But that is neither here nor there. Once again, you brought up Hungarians who despite at many times having no political boundaries or state to speak of still maintained a Hungarian language, literature, music, and cuisine. Speaking of which, if I was arguing that Confederates have a culture, I would say take a look at examples of Confederate Cooking. If any of these dishes extended beyond wartime conditions (like spam did for Hawaiians) then I would say they have a cuisine thus some semblance of a culture (I don't think anyone still eats this stuff though).

But to say I hate the Confederate flag or the Confederacy is a personal value judgement. "Hatred" is an internal discussion among those who choose to fly the flag ; if they do not want the flag associated with hate then they have some serious housecleaning to do! So to say that "a lot" of Southerners exclude Maryland from the South based on its lack of secession into the Confederacy is looking at a limited scope of Southerners.
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Old 03-06-2011, 08:21 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
4,564 posts, read 7,630,675 times
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I certainly thought you hated the flag, I wouldn't blame you if you did.

I have never thought that any of your personal opinions poisioned or skewed your debating points. You are good about that, I try to emulate you in that way. None the less I read through the lines sometimes to try and figure out why people argue so vehemently the way they do, and someone's whose position was positive or neutral on the Rebel flag and the Confederacy, probably wouldn't debate about it the same way you do. That's OK. I apologize for bringing personal opinions into the discussion.

As for the Southern vs. Confederate thing. That is best I can do. The South's nation-state was quickly crushed and left only a culture of battles, warriors, and defeat. This defeat left an indelable mark on the Southern people. I would argue even in defeat the Confederacy united the Southern people into a stronger group than they were before 1860. The war and flag cults are examples of this.

In a previous internet existence I was a major contributor on the Wikipedia Southern US pages, arguing for Maryland's inclusion. I heard over and over that because Maryland didn't fight and suffer alongside her sisters, we couldn't claim membership in the club. I don't think that is a fringe opinion among Southerns, their war for independence united them, our state was on the other side. All of that is still archived on the discussion pages of Wikipedia, if you want to go look.

As for the bigger picture of Confederate culture, if you don't buy it, you don't buy it. I will admit a little frustration as I don't see how someone as rational and intellegent as yourself could point out how many "Southerns" love to go play dress up as their "Confederate" heros and still deny that there is a Confederate culture based around the failed nation-state, but I am out of arguments.

As for the Hungarians, they are a people, the Magyars. They have had many states, some failed, some were big, some were small, sometimes there were none, a small state - not containing all Hungarians exists today. One of their conquered states left them the cult hero of St. Stephen. His crown is the most revered symbol of the people, even though his kingdom fell, and the Hungarians no longer have a king. Yet, this artifact of their first attempted "nation-state" is a cult symbol. Why you don't equate this to Southern culture (made up of people that still exist) and the Confederate State (the South's failed nation-state whose heros and symbols are still valued) confuses me.

Last edited by westsideboy; 03-06-2011 at 09:35 PM..
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Old 03-07-2011, 02:15 PM
 
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
1,154 posts, read 3,854,907 times
Reputation: 699
Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
I think this is why so many Southerns are relucant to except Maryland. Even with our cultural similarities, we didn't/couldn't join the fight, and the fight is largely, even to this day, what defines much of the Southern nation.
I dunno, they don't seem as reluctant to accept Kentucky or even West Virginia. I think it has more to do with the fact that Maryland overall is liberal, crowded, and wealthy. Whether or not those are even northern attributes at all is certainly debatable, but that's how a lot of people see it.

And Anthony Bourdain's episode on the rust belt/Baltimore didn't help either.

Last edited by NYMTman; 03-07-2011 at 02:29 PM..
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Old 03-07-2011, 03:13 PM
 
Location: Edgemere, Maryland
501 posts, read 956,060 times
Reputation: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYMTman View Post
I dunno, they don't seem as reluctant to accept Kentucky or even West Virginia. I think it has more to do with the fact that Maryland overall is liberal, crowded, and wealthy. Whether or not those are even northern attributes at all is certainly debatable, but that's how a lot of people see it.
I agree- but it is just people's perception because that is how CENTRAL Maryland is... and it happens to be the most populous part of the state.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NYMTman View Post
And Anthony Bourdain's episode on the rust belt/Baltimore didn't help either.
I have never heard of this and no one I know has, so I doubt it holds much influence.
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Old 03-07-2011, 04:13 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
4,564 posts, read 7,630,675 times
Reputation: 2790
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYMTman View Post
I dunno, they don't seem as reluctant to accept Kentucky or even West Virginia. I think it has more to do with the fact that Maryland overall is liberal, crowded, and wealthy. Whether or not those are even northern attributes at all is certainly debatable, but that's how a lot of people see it.

And Anthony Bourdain's episode on the rust belt/Baltimore didn't help either.
The wikipedia discussion about KY was even more contentious than the one about Maryland. Mostly, this was because of a few contributors with radically different interpretations of the state. None the less, every border state had to have advocates argue for their inclusion or they would have been left out entirely. Here is apparantly where the consensus is now as far as Wikipedia is concerned.

File:Map of the Southern United States modern definition.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Notice even ole' Virginia is only "usually considered" a Southern State according to the map.
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