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Old 05-26-2012, 01:04 PM
 
Location: Edgemere, Maryland
501 posts, read 955,647 times
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Democratic does not always equate to liberal, and Republican does not always equate to conservative. (Take West Virginia)
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Old 05-26-2012, 01:18 PM
 
Location: Germantown, MD
1,359 posts, read 3,189,330 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MDguy99 View Post
Democratic does not always equate to liberal, and Republican does not always equate to conservative. (Take West Virginia)
Agreed, which is why I stated this in my last two posts (WV actually being an example I used earlier).


As for the geography discussion, I don't think latitude (in comparison to other states) has that much bearing on MD's culture in general. Almost all of Maryland is north of the Southern borders of Ohio, Illinois, Indiana, and Colorado (none of which are in the South using any definition). Proximity and presence of water boundaries are probably more important factors. That little finger of land in WV that stretches up between OH and PA has little affect on WV's culture/demographics on a whole, and you're likely to find more "Southern" traits on the DE side of the Delaware Bay than the NJ side.

The climate is pretty much the same for the entire coastal region from DC to New York. DC, MD W of MoCo, DE, South NJ, SE PA/Philly, Long Island are all in the humid subtropical climate zone. As I mentioned on a earlier post, on the East Coast elevation makes a much bigger difference in local climate than lattitude, which is why BWI is usually at an equal or +1 or +2 deg. higher than IAD usually.
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Old 05-26-2012, 01:32 PM
 
Location: BMORE!
7,245 posts, read 5,541,640 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MDguy99 View Post
Sigh. I was making a point about Virginia. Not about a line, but essentially cutting the state of VA in two and where you would do that and that the product of that would essentially be a "Mid-Atlantic" Virginia that would be akin to a second Maryland without Baltimore.

Essex and Dundalk do have some Southern traits, yes. Why would that carry over to NJ? Southern geography and traits do not go in a straight line. The climate is different in Southeastern Baltimore County because of geography of the Bay, and proximity to Baltimore (an urban heat-zone). Culturally, NJ doesn't have a Southern history. Eastern Baltimore County does (i.e.- Bowleys Quarters [named for Daniel Bowley's slave quarters). So, no, I do not believe Southern traits are in South Jersey because they never had a Southern past to begin with and the entire state of Maryland did, especially some sections of Southeastern/ Eastern Baltimore County. Today, Central Maryland is Mid-Atlantic, as is South Jersey, but funny thing is, the present day Southern areas of Maryland are exactly south of the southern tip of NJ, so you are right in a way that it can be used as a general gauge.

Fun fact: Essex, Dundalk, Middle River are all further south than the Northernmost tip of Virginia... which is, in turn further north than the Southernmost tip of NJ.

Geography in the eastern half of the U.S. is a trip. For example, the northernmost tip of West Virginia is a far north as NYC.
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Old 05-26-2012, 01:53 PM
 
Location: Edgemere, Maryland
501 posts, read 955,647 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KodeBlue View Post
Geography in the eastern half of the U.S. is a trip. For example, the northernmost tip of West Virginia is a far north as NYC.
It is and it always tends to throw one off when evaluating cultural boundaries. Appalachian-Coastal cultural conflicts of East Coast states aside, it seems "vertical" states tend to pose the most problems in that regard (West Virginia, Missouri, Illinois, Florida).
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Old 05-26-2012, 02:07 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
4,562 posts, read 7,625,854 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpterp View Post
Agreed, which is why I stated this in my last two posts (WV actually being an example I used earlier).


As for the geography discussion, I don't think latitude (in comparison to other states) has that much bearing on MD's culture in general. Almost all of Maryland is north of the Southern borders of Ohio, Illinois, Indiana, and Colorado (none of which are in the South using any definition). Proximity and presence of water boundaries are probably more important factors. That little finger of land in WV that stretches up between OH and PA has little affect on WV's culture/demographics on a whole, and you're likely to find more "Southern" traits on the DE side of the Delaware Bay than the NJ side.

The climate is pretty much the same for the entire coastal region from DC to New York. DC, MD W of MoCo, DE, South NJ, SE PA/Philly, Long Island are all in the humid subtropical climate zone. As I mentioned on a earlier post, on the East Coast elevation makes a much bigger difference in local climate than lattitude, which is why BWI is usually at an equal or +1 or +2 deg. higher than IAD usually.
Do you know there wouldn't be a "West Virginia" without that "little sliver between OH and PA?" Wheeling was the biggest city and cultural capital (as well as actual capital) of WV for some time. It was the manufacturing magnates along the Ohio River in Wheeling that really pushed for secession from Tidewater WV. Many of the more mountainous counties voted to stay with VA, or didn't vote at all! It was Wheeling and the counties along the Ohio that won the day.

WV has distinct regions just like Maryland. The Northern Panhandle is one of the most important. You can't understand WV without understanding Wheeling and the surrounding region.

Here is a county wide map showing the WV statehood vote

File:WVStatehoodVote.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here is a county map showing secession from the Union, when WV was still part of VA.

West Virginia Secession Map - West Virginia - The Other History

WV is another border state with distinct cultural region, the Northern Panhandle being among the most important. Appalachia isn't a monolith either.
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Old 05-27-2012, 08:40 AM
 
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Came to Maryland from northern Indiana in the third grade and heard "Dixie" for the first time.
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Old 05-27-2012, 09:47 AM
 
Location: PROUD Son of the South in Maryland
386 posts, read 531,009 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpterp View Post
VA, NC, FL are blue states??? Wow. If in fact you mean they all voted for president Obama in 2008, that is correct. Still, I assure you that in no way, shape, or form are/were those states "blue," at least not in the general way the term is used. If anything they could be considered "purple" or swing states, like a number of the midwestern states and PA. As far as political balances in their respective state houses/senates and US House/Senate delegation, all three are nearly solidly Republican in each category except a few which are split. Virginia's two Dem. senators being the exception. As I mentioned in my post, I agree that it isn't clear cut red/blue.

Also, Maryland is not a 50/50 state. 56% of registered voters in Maryland identify themselves as Democrats compared to 27% of Republicans. Democrats dominate both houses in Annapolis, and the US congressional delegation is 8:2 (soon to be 9:1, sorry Bartlett) Democrat:Republican.

Maryland (and Delaware) was never truly part of the "solid south," at least not when the "solid blue" turned to "solid red" during the civil rights era (after which the only dems to win in the South were Southerners Carter and Clinton). MD/DE have long been heavily Democratic states.
Maryland was part of the solid south until the federal government expanded and the NE flooded MD and VA and we started to sway towards northeast politics slightly. The state is 50/50 on how it votes so its not as liberal as many would think. Go to Columbia and its hippie heaven, drive less then 10 minutes west to clarksville and youd be in Glenn Beck lover territory.

VA and NC are the same. Sure they voted Obama, but each of the states are split 50/50.
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Old 05-28-2012, 04:30 PM
 
Location: Germantown, MD
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@westsideboy

You may have misinterpreted my post. I totally understand that Wheeling and the rest of that small strip are just as important, (or more important) than any other area of WV when looking at the culture of the state, and I wasn't downplaying any of that.

My post was in response to the earlier discussion on land area that might stretch north, south, etc. into a different region. Simply put (as far as WV is concerned) the fact that the northern panhandle is north of the southern border of OH does not automatically make the entire state of WV Midwestern. Similarly Illinois/Indiana wouldn't be labelled Southern simply because their Southern tips extend past the Northern KY border, although those portions of those states may have Southern traits and could be considered Southern.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew_s View Post
Maryland was part of the solid south until the federal government expanded and the NE flooded MD and VA and we started to sway towards northeast politics slightly. The state is 50/50 on how it votes so its not as liberal as many would think. Go to Columbia and its hippie heaven, drive less then 10 minutes west to clarksville and youd be in Glenn Beck lover territory.

VA and NC are the same. Sure they voted Obama, but each of the states are split 50/50.
Maryland politics leanings are very different from those of Virginia and North Carolina.

My background is in Economics/Politics/Public Policy and, Northeast, Southern, Mid-Atlantic, whatever, Maryland is well known as stronghold for the Democratic Party and has been so for a very long time. I honestly don't see how you can call Maryland "50/50." Maybe you could give an example of an statewide/nationwide election that shows this. As I said before, how liberal the state is is a different story, but it is staunchly Democratic, more so than even most states in the Northeast. Residents of MD (and neighboring states) love to call the state "communist," "socialist," or, my favorite, "The People's Republic of Maryland."

There are far more red areas in the state than blue areas (which is true of basically every mainland state outside of New England), but in terms of numbers Democrats outnumber Republicans 2:1, and its not just because of transplants. North Carolina has seen a far larger influx of transplants than MD, and even VA, but is still moderately conservative (middle of the road at most).
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Old 05-29-2012, 09:38 AM
 
Location: Cumberland
4,562 posts, read 7,625,854 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpterp View Post
@westsideboy

You may have misinterpreted my post. I totally understand that Wheeling and the rest of that small strip are just as important, (or more important) than any other area of WV when looking at the culture of the state, and I wasn't downplaying any of that.

My post was in response to the earlier discussion on land area that might stretch north, south, etc. into a different region. Simply put (as far as WV is concerned) the fact that the northern panhandle is north of the southern border of OH does not automatically make the entire state of WV Midwestern. Similarly Illinois/Indiana wouldn't be labelled Southern simply because their Southern tips extend past the Northern KY border, although those portions of those states may have Southern traits and could be considered Southern.



Maryland politics leanings are very different from those of Virginia and North Carolina.

My background is in Economics/Politics/Public Policy and, Northeast, Southern, Mid-Atlantic, whatever, Maryland is well known as stronghold for the Democratic Party and has been so for a very long time. I honestly don't see how you can call Maryland "50/50." Maybe you could give an example of an statewide/nationwide election that shows this. As I said before, how liberal the state is is a different story, but it is staunchly Democratic, more so than even most states in the Northeast. Residents of MD (and neighboring states) love to call the state "communist," "socialist," or, my favorite, "The People's Republic of Maryland."

There are far more red areas in the state than blue areas (which is true of basically every mainland state outside of New England), but in terms of numbers Democrats outnumber Republicans 2:1, and its not just because of transplants. North Carolina has seen a far larger influx of transplants than MD, and even VA, but is still moderately conservative (middle of the road at most).
Gotcha
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Old 05-31-2012, 08:40 PM
 
3 posts, read 3,647 times
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First of all, I would like to say i have a Doctorate level education and I'm not a southern MD hillbilly who claims MD is southern and doesn't have a basis for it. I grew up in southern MD, went to college with people from up north and lived in TN. Based on my upbringing and cultural experiences, I consider myself a southerner and MD is the South. I grew up saying y'all, drank sweet tea, ate collard greens and grits, and understood Maryland's history as the Old South.

The fact that MD was part of the Old South is undeniable and deep roots of southern culture are still
alive in rural areas of the state (e.g. So MD, eastern shore). If Maryland isn't southern then why is it listed in the biggest southern publication, Southern Living, that was made and is continually produced by "real southerners"? Why does the census continue to list it as the south? Why do people say y'all? These points could go on forever but what really helps to make sense of it all is pointing out the reasons why people discard MD as the South.

The fringes of the south (northern VA, surburbian MD, Florida) have experienced the most rapid desouthernization than any other areas of the South due to economic and lifestyle reasons. The MD/VA area is attractive to many people from up north because it's a geographically central, almost recession proof, has excellent schools, moderate climate, and a short drive to PA/NJ/NY. What's the first state you hit coming south? Maryland. Florida has experienced this change as well but mainly due to retirees and snowbirds. Florida was the Deep south until it became New York south. Why do you think the south doesnt consider Florida southern? Maryland has so many transplants from up north its not even funny. The majority of people in Montgomery, Howard and DC might be MD'ers but by 1 generation. I work in Anne Arundel county and I would vouch to say that between 1/3rd and 1/2 of my patients are from the North.

The South is always changing and will continue to change as people move and transplants do not assimilate with southern culture. How ever you want to cut it up, to me being Southern is a state of mind. My family's roots run deep here and I'm southern because of everything that was passed down to me over hundreds of years in Southern Maryland.
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